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Post by firebottle on Oct 7, 2024 6:23:32 GMT
 That's funny!
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Post by macca on Oct 7, 2024 6:56:01 GMT
Anyone who thinks a crossover needs to cost a thousand quid is a long way from being an expert.
And it measured and performed poorly so the proof is in the pudding in any case.
The idea that knowledge can only be gained from personal experience is fundamentally faulty. Imagine if a doctor had to learn medicine from scratch by trial an error. He'd be an old man before he'd rediscovered a fraction of the knowledge in his textbooks.
There's nothing wrong with trying to push boundaries but you have to be up to speed on what is already established knowledge otherwise you will probably spend a lot of time discovering things already known, and going up blind alleys.
If we are going to talk personal experience as though that's all that counts, I was designing and modifying speakers and crossovers more than 30 years ago...so....
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 7, 2024 7:06:15 GMT
It sounds like you agree with my point then macca. Experience/knowledge of over 50 years in each 'expert' does not mean an inherently good outcome/speaker. Unfortunately, it's the same in many industries. The experienced and renowned people (usually pricey too) do not always give the best result. Most of that £1000 was the design fee. Knowledge and experience (with no innovation) didn't come cheap. |
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Post by macca on Oct 7, 2024 7:13:29 GMT
Not so long ago I had a listen to some large loudspeakers by a designer feted in the 'community.'
They were terrible, as swapping in another loudspeaker immediately demonstrated.
I've heard speakers by the same designer which seemed pretty good so this could well be a one-off.
Sadly the owner was in denial and spent a fair bit of time and money replacing other components in his system trying and failing to fix the problem. Just because someone basically knows what they are doing, and has got it right in the past, doesn't mean they can't get it wrong sometimes.
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Post by macca on Oct 7, 2024 7:19:30 GMT
It sounds like you agree with my point then macca . Experience/knowledge of over 50 years in each 'expert' does not mean an inherently good outcome/speaker. Unfortunately, it's the same in many industries. The experienced and renowned people (usually pricey too) do not always give the best result. Most of that £1000 was the design fee. Knowledge and experience (with no innovation) didn't come cheap. Well I don't know who the 'expert' is and you're not going to say, so I can't say I agree or disagree that the person is an expert. Sounds to me like they are not. Or, they do know their stuff but have decided to throw out the rulebook and do things their way. For a concrete example of that look at Audionote speakers. Terrible measurements and ludicrously expensive for a crude 2-way but they don't sound bad used with Audionote amplifiers. Consequently they have a niche following. |
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Post by macca on Oct 7, 2024 7:29:52 GMT
Yes driver materials have improved, you can get more for less too. But these are very incremental improvements as any comparison between a modern speaker and a good speaker from 40 years ago will show. The movement on is very small. Again, that's not what I am saying. I was saying that it is at best optimistic to think that someone discover something worthwhile that has previously been missed for decades by everyone. Nothing to do with technology not moving on. Whom is claiming to have discovered a breakthrough though? Have I missed something? Anyway, ten small incremental improvements could well equate to a fairly substantial one so why not try? It's very defeatist to just assume there's no point in attempting things, people are comfortable like that though, I do get that. No-one is claiming anything. This discussion started because Jason was theorising that odd and even harmonic distortion in drivers could be worth exploring in the quest for better sound. I politely suggested that based on the existing research this is probably not an avenue that is worth exploring. Not everything is worth attempting, although I appreciate this goes against the grain of many enthusiast's 'Find out for myself' approach. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 7, 2024 8:00:12 GMT
Whom is claiming to have discovered a breakthrough though? Have I missed something? Anyway, ten small incremental improvements could well equate to a fairly substantial one so why not try? It's very defeatist to just assume there's no point in attempting things, people are comfortable like that though, I do get that. No-one is claiming anything. This discussion started because Jason was theorising that odd and even harmonic distortion in drivers could be worth exploring in the quest for better sound. I politely suggested that based on the existing research this is probably not an avenue that is worth exploring. Not everything is worth attempting, although I appreciate this goes against the grain of many enthusiast's 'Find out for myself' approach. "All the speakers in question reveal similar amounts of information. Their differences in character are more related to the harmonic distortion levels. Even numbers (2nd, 4th harmonics etc.) tend to add harmonics that some people like and find add something positive. Odd harmonics (3rd, 5th harmonics) are not generally considered to add as positively to the character." |
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Post by macca on Oct 7, 2024 8:37:42 GMT
No-one is claiming anything. This discussion started because Jason was theorising that odd and even harmonic distortion in drivers could be worth exploring in the quest for better sound. I politely suggested that based on the existing research this is probably not an avenue that is worth exploring. Not everything is worth attempting, although I appreciate this goes against the grain of many enthusiast's 'Find out for myself' approach. "All the speakers in question reveal similar amounts of information. Their differences in character are more related to the harmonic distortion levels. Even numbers (2nd, 4th harmonics etc.) tend to add harmonics that some people like and find add something positive. Odd harmonics (3rd, 5th harmonics) are not generally considered to add as positively to the character." Are you quoting yourself or some reference? It is true that it has long been theorised that some harmonic distortions are pleasant - but there is no evidence that it's true. Admittedly this is an area where testing has not been as extensive as would be desirable to be conclusive. However there's another issue in that harmonic distortion has to be surprisingly high before we notice it is present. There are online tests you can take to see for yourself how much needs to be dialled in before it affects the sound audibly. Spoiler - it's a lot. Some say this is the 'valve sound' but again the levels of harmonic distortion in valve amps does not tend to be high enough to hear - except maybe in some SET designs. And with audible harmonic distortion you will get audible intermodulation distortion - and that always sounds bad. So there's no free lunch. This is partly why SET/Horn systems can sound as rough as a badger's arse with some programme (owners will blame 'bad recordings' ofc). Toole advises to keep all distortions in loudspeakers as low as possible for best sound quality. That was the knowledge I was passing on, it is not drawn from my own personal experience but is the conclusion of decades of academic study. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 7, 2024 14:55:10 GMT
"All the speakers in question reveal similar amounts of information. Their differences in character are more related to the harmonic distortion levels. Even numbers (2nd, 4th harmonics etc.) tend to add harmonics that some people like and find add something positive. Odd harmonics (3rd, 5th harmonics) are not generally considered to add as positively to the character." Are you quoting yourself or some reference? It is true that it has long been theorised that some harmonic distortions are pleasant - but there is no evidence that it's true. Admittedly this is an area where testing has not been as extensive as would be desirable to be conclusive. However there's another issue in that harmonic distortion has to be surprisingly high before we notice it is present. There are online tests you can take to see for yourself how much needs to be dialled in before it affects the sound audibly. Spoiler - it's a lot. Some say this is the 'valve sound' but again the levels of harmonic distortion in valve amps does not tend to be high enough to hear - except maybe in some SET designs. And with audible harmonic distortion you will get audible intermodulation distortion - and that always sounds bad. So there's no free lunch. This is partly why SET/Horn systems can sound as rough as a badger's arse with some programme (owners will blame 'bad recordings' ofc). Toole advises to keep all distortions in loudspeakers as low as possible for best sound quality. That was the knowledge I was passing on, it is not drawn from my own personal experience but is the conclusion of decades of academic study. Thanks again for your advice Martin, but with respect, I would rather seek information in my own manner. I am well versed in vibration, structures, acoustics, electronics and filter networks. I specialised in this at university and have worked in electronic systems and advanced structures/dynamics for many years. I haven't felt the need to spell this out as I didn't feel it was necessary. I realise my approach to designing and developing speakers is not completely aligned with yours and am happy to respect you have different views on how a speaker should be designed and built. You have made it clear that my approach is perhaps 'chasing rainbows' and that I can't do anything novel (as it has already been done) . Thank you for view and it has been duly noted. Also, thanks for passing on that Toole advises to keep speaker distortion as low as possible - once again, duly noted. I really appreciate and enjoy the open discussions on this forum. However, I am happy to forge my own way and already work with a network of professionals and experts (not the ones that designed my brother's speakers!). We all have similar goals and aligned speaker design philosophies. I am planning to implement innovative and novel technologies and shall let the appropriate patent authorities decide what is and isn't novel. Rest assured, I will certainly ask for help when I need it. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 7, 2024 16:43:46 GMT
I have to say, bashing out advice on Speaker design and manufacture to Jason feels a bit like me giving advice to Fanny Craddock on baking cakes. Yeah, we've all had a bash at baking a cake, but then there's Fanny Craddock.......
I suppose what would be worse is quoting other people experience on speaker design rather than what i have learned and evidenced for myself.
I am reminded of the time i sat with my Muai Thai coach discussing his last UFC fight. I had been an avid student of MMA since my mid 20's and had spent a severe amount of time learning both theory and practically in the dojos and gyms of the west midlands. In his last fight he had downed his opponent with a sweet hook and dived in. As he dived in, the opponent grabbed his arm and ended the fight with an arm bar. I said to him "you just needed to take a second and you'd have won that fight" The veteran Muai Thai coach looked at me and said....."when you've been in the cage, you can talk to me about strategy"
That was his polite way to say, shut the F#ck up until you've done it yourself.
There's an important moral to this story that i hope isn't lost in my polite way of explaining it.
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Post by misterc on Oct 7, 2024 16:57:41 GMT
New materials, new techniques and speakers really won't look & sound like they do now no matter how good, technologly is really starting to take off now, with the new substraights, wafer methods, the processing to power to design & manufacturer new materials much faster and with greater accuracy. Its all coming, possibly for myself I will see some of this you never Know lol
Last month I listened to a protoype pair of speakers that were entirely 3D printed including the x/over boards, from design inception to making the first sound 21 days and that was after spending a week refining the x/overs and internal dac / power pack, quite something, a couple of years and only the big ticket items will still hold for the wealthy, the rest well not so much in the wind these days!!
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optical
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Post by optical on Oct 8, 2024 8:19:29 GMT
The main enemy of progress in niche fields, (which mid-high end hifi is quickly becoming), is a sustained lack of interest from younger generations.
There will always be those curious minds that buck the trends ( and thank goodness for that) but less and less of them within this hobby I am afraid to speculate.
The trend towards the conclusion that 'good enough, is good enough', is becoming the normal, perhaps it has been for a while now.
Young minds potential exposure to the world of actual hif (speakers, components etc) is very limited now (even if they are aware of music in general). A bluetooth speaker connected to Spotify is about all the average kid is going get to experience. Not like when every family had a turntable, cassette deck and radio plumbed into a pair of speakers in the lounge that were literally part of the furniture. It's just not accepted as the norm now (hasn't been for a while) and certainly doesn't fit in with todays demand for convenient, inoffensive one box solution offerings where SQ is basically an afterthought. Therefore the quality of speakers is of little importance to most.
Doesn't mean there is not scope for development by those that are still passionate about it though.
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Post by jandl100 on Oct 8, 2024 11:06:27 GMT
^
I think part of the problem is that "A bluetooth speaker connected to Spotify [is about all the average kid is going get to experience]" is actually pretty decent.
So there's less incentive than there used to be to investigate better options.
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Post by stevew on Oct 8, 2024 11:47:43 GMT
The main enemy of progress in niche fields, (which mid-high end hifi is quickly becoming), is a sustained lack of interest from younger generations. There will always be those curious minds that buck the trends ( and thank goodness for that) but less and less of them within this hobby I am afraid to speculate. The trend towards the conclusion that 'good enough, is good enough', is becoming the normal, perhaps it has been for a while now. Young minds potential exposure to the world of actual hif (speakers, components etc) is very limited now (even if they are aware of music in general). A bluetooth speaker connected to Spotify is about all the average kid is going get to experience. Not like when every family had a turntable, cassette deck and radio plumbed into a pair of speakers in the lounge that were literally part of the furniture. It's just not accepted as the norm now (hasn't been for a while) and certainly doesn't fit in with todays demand for convenient, inoffensive one box solution offerings where SQ is basically an afterthought. Therefore the quality of speakers is of little importance to most. Doesn't mean there is not scope for development by those that are still passionate about it though. Hi Chris, couldn’t agree with you more. However I have begun to doubt my own perception of this. All anecdotal of course, but 30 years ago I remember going to a few hifi events mainly arranged by The Sound Organisation in York. My mate at the time reflected that we were unusual in that we were in the minority of people with hair. Apologies to those not challenged by thatch. Ironically his hairline has traveled north.What he really meant was that most people were middle aged or older. So even 30 years ago we felt like a minority within our own generation. So in recent months I’ve decided to use my local record shop rather than Amazon etc. (Applestump records, Nantwich) . Talking to the owner his business is booming. He only sells vinyl. Now… I assumed that his market was hipsters who buy vinyl for appearance rather than music consumption. I was wrong … people are listening more… and driving demand for local live music. So I still ponder all this, and remain convinced that culturally those of us of a certain age share that passion for listening to music, just maybe it hasn’t quite dissipated. |
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Post by optical on Oct 8, 2024 11:48:30 GMT
^ I think part of the problem is that " A bluetooth speaker connected to Spotify [is about all the average kid is going get to experience]" is actually pretty decent. So there's less incentive than there used to be to investigate better options. Are there actually any decent ones? Every single Bluetooth speaker I've ever encountered has all the frequency response of a ceiling fan. Think mobile phone in an upturned saucepan  Admittedly I haven't heard many (clearly!). Also the sound is emanating from a single point source usually, the listener gets zero stereo effect or soundstage to speak of, they're just loud and bassy (which i guess impresses initially). I know you can get a 'pair' of Bluetooth speakers so perhaps stereo is achievable. |
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Post by stevew on Oct 8, 2024 12:12:12 GMT
Not sure about the Bluetooth speaker.. my kids (in their 30’s! Eek), listen through earbuds.
I have to say, my own AirPod pros are staggeringly good.
With Apple pushing out more and more on Dolby Atmos it’s another facet of me to question my perception that younger generations have lost interest in music. They just consume it differently.
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optical
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Post by optical on Oct 8, 2024 14:07:19 GMT
Not sure about the Bluetooth speaker.. my kids (in their 30’s! Eek), listen through earbuds. I have to say, my own AirPod pros are staggeringly good. With Apple pushing out more and more on Dolby Atmos it’s another facet of me to question my perception that younger generations have lost interest in music. They just consume it differently. Yeah I was more referring to bluetooth speakers specifically, as I know 'ear buds' and general 'in-ear- tech, has moved on significantly in the last few years. I can understand that preference as it just ticks most boxes. Especially for the younger generation . . . Nowt wrong with being in your 30's Steve . . . just . . . LOL |
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optical
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Post by optical on Oct 8, 2024 14:12:40 GMT
The main enemy of progress in niche fields, (which mid-high end hifi is quickly becoming), is a sustained lack of interest from younger generations. There will always be those curious minds that buck the trends ( and thank goodness for that) but less and less of them within this hobby I am afraid to speculate. The trend towards the conclusion that 'good enough, is good enough', is becoming the normal, perhaps it has been for a while now. Young minds potential exposure to the world of actual hif (speakers, components etc) is very limited now (even if they are aware of music in general). A bluetooth speaker connected to Spotify is about all the average kid is going get to experience. Not like when every family had a turntable, cassette deck and radio plumbed into a pair of speakers in the lounge that were literally part of the furniture. It's just not accepted as the norm now (hasn't been for a while) and certainly doesn't fit in with todays demand for convenient, inoffensive one box solution offerings where SQ is basically an afterthought. Therefore the quality of speakers is of little importance to most. Doesn't mean there is not scope for development by those that are still passionate about it though. Hi Chris, couldn’t agree with you more. However I have begun to doubt my own perception of this. All anecdotal of course, but 30 years ago I remember going to a few hifi events mainly arranged by The Sound Organisation in York. My mate at the time reflected that we were unusual in that we were in the minority of people with hair. Apologies to those not challenged by thatch. Ironically his hairline has traveled north.What he really meant was that most people were middle aged or older. So even 30 years ago we felt like a minority within our own generation. So in recent months I’ve decided to use my local record shop rather than Amazon etc. (Applestump records, Nantwich) . Talking to the owner his business is booming. He only sells vinyl. Now… I assumed that his market was hipsters who buy vinyl for appearance rather than music consumption. I was wrong … people are listening more… and driving demand for local live music. So I still ponder all this, and remain convinced that culturally those of us of a certain age share that passion for listening to music, just maybe it hasn’t quite dissipated. That's interesting Steve, and gives some hope for the future I guess. There was a revival of a vinyl shop (within a bookshop populated by 'just stop oil' types I must add) . . . which I was excited to check out where I live in Woking the other day . . . have to say I was fairly disappointed. Very mainstream titles, Stevie Wonder, Stones, 'new' (expensive) reissues of Dark Side etc etc . . . nothing to really get excited about. I guess it's a start and as something I've often wondered about doing myself, is a step in the right direction towards some cultural evolution in a town (like many) more populated by estate agents and betting shops now. Although there are half decent boutique restaurants/eateries and small independent shops popping up from time to time, if they survive the first 6 months that is . . . |
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Post by ergun on Oct 8, 2024 14:32:19 GMT
My brother's speakers are Trigger's broom... He recently sent this message: "I was just thinking about my speakers... cabinets made by dad and me, drive units from “x“ company and "y" company, xo design by "a", "b" and finally ARKE Audio, they've been 3 different colours by 2 different body shops, everyone's had a go at them 🤣 sounding v nice right now!“ Essentially, my brother has never been happy with his speakers and has paid 2 of the most respected speaker/crossover designers in the UK. They have over 100 years combined experience and design speakers for many of the world's most revered companies. I measured his latest crossovers and they were terrible - full of phase issues and a terrible frequency response - one very 'renowned' designer charged him £1000 for the XO design and components - utter rubbish and this knowledge goes into a lot of 'high end' retail speakers. About 6 weeks ago I decided to redesign his crossover remotely using very good simulation software. I spent one morning modelling the drivers, baffles, time alignments, diffraction and various topologies. I also used my measurements (of his poor XO) to verify the simulation was correctly modelling the correlation between his poor XO and the poor measurements.... The simulation was bang on! The poor XO did indeed have the same poor FR and phase issues in the sim. After a little work (about 3-4hrs), I remotely redesigned his XO and achieved results which far surpassed the 'experts' in the industry. In addition, the new XO design cost nothing as the sale of unwanted components covered the cost of the new ones. Maybe I got lucky, or maybe the experts using tried and tested methods fell short of the mark. Who is innovating and providing results and performance? The people/companies with (50+ years) experience and knowledge or the 'Mavericks' trying to excel by breaking the mould? Maybe you know audiosciencereview or maybe you both know and read it, I'm not sure  I bought a few devices that I had at home for a while based on both what hi-fi reviews and audiosciencereview measurements. One of them was the "I hope you don't mind me giving a model" Denon x3500h cinema amplifier. What hi-fi liked it very much and it had the best measurements possible in its price range in technical measurements. Before I bought it, I had an old Onkyo cinema amplifier. Finally, the Denon I bought from Amazon arrived. I set it up using its microphone and started listening to some music first. I wasn't sure exactly what I was hearing. Almost no lower midrange, no bass or any integration between them. Everything was just the upper midrange and highs. From what I heard, the sound was dull and overly analytical. And the only thing I was advised on the forums I asked about this was that I should use a subwoofer. However, I didn't have such a problem with the Onkyo receiver I used before, which was at least 10 years older. After all this, I sold Denon and bought an entry level receiver Sony dn1080. All that unpleasant sound was gone, instead something very different came. Yes, dn1080 also got a good score from what hi-fi in entry level. But the results were not that good in technical measurements. After a while, I started to have this thought. Not everything can be explained by technical measurements. Not everything can be explained by what you hear. The point where these two meet is the optimum point. And if you trust your ear but are not professional enough to take measurements, you should have a friend who does this |
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Post by jandl100 on Oct 8, 2024 16:10:36 GMT
^ I think part of the problem is that " A bluetooth speaker connected to Spotify [is about all the average kid is going get to experience]" is actually pretty decent. So there's less incentive than there used to be to investigate better options. Are there actually any decent ones? Every single Bluetooth speaker I've ever encountered has all the frequency response of a ceiling fan. Think mobile phone in an upturned saucepan Admittedly I haven't heard many (clearly!). Also the sound is emanating from a single point source usually, the listener gets zero stereo effect or soundstage to speak of, they're just loud and bassy (which i guess impresses initially). I know you can get a 'pair' of Bluetooth speakers so perhaps stereo is achievable. My niece has an Echo Dot bluetooth speaker. It's nothing like you describe! Yes, it does sound quite decent. Tbh most folks, who aren't deranged obsessed nutjobs like us, would probably be very happy with that sound. It's very listenable imho. And i regard myself as quite fussy. True it's mono. So what? There's a thread on the Maverick forum atm with many folks with serious high end systems saying they listen off axis and aren't bothered by that. I'm one of the minority who dissent from that view! |
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Post by bencat on Oct 9, 2024 12:33:33 GMT
I have a system in the kitchen which was put in to add some music when cooking . I also bought an Amazon Echo for my wife Linda as she could not be bothered to get the system working . As Jerry says it is nothing like HiFi but it does play music and Linda loves it all she has to do is call out what she wants to hear and it just plays . While I would be very happy to see more younger people looking at better sound quality I am more happy that they are still listening to music in whatever form they use.
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Post by macca on Oct 13, 2024 8:40:20 GMT
Are you quoting yourself or some reference? It is true that it has long been theorised that some harmonic distortions are pleasant - but there is no evidence that it's true. Admittedly this is an area where testing has not been as extensive as would be desirable to be conclusive. However there's another issue in that harmonic distortion has to be surprisingly high before we notice it is present. There are online tests you can take to see for yourself how much needs to be dialled in before it affects the sound audibly. Spoiler - it's a lot. Some say this is the 'valve sound' but again the levels of harmonic distortion in valve amps does not tend to be high enough to hear - except maybe in some SET designs. And with audible harmonic distortion you will get audible intermodulation distortion - and that always sounds bad. So there's no free lunch. This is partly why SET/Horn systems can sound as rough as a badger's arse with some programme (owners will blame 'bad recordings' ofc). Toole advises to keep all distortions in loudspeakers as low as possible for best sound quality. That was the knowledge I was passing on, it is not drawn from my own personal experience but is the conclusion of decades of academic study. Thanks again for your advice Martin, but with respect, I would rather seek information in my own manner. I am well versed in vibration, structures, acoustics, electronics and filter networks. I specialised in this at university and have worked in electronic systems and advanced structures/dynamics for many years. I haven't felt the need to spell this out as I didn't feel it was necessary. I realise my approach to designing and developing speakers is not completely aligned with yours and am happy to respect you have different views on how a speaker should be designed and built. You have made it clear that my approach is perhaps 'chasing rainbows' and that I can't do anything novel (as it has already been done) . Thank you for view and it has been duly noted. Also, thanks for passing on that Toole advises to keep speaker distortion as low as possible - once again, duly noted. I really appreciate and enjoy the open discussions on this forum. However, I am happy to forge my own way and already work with a network of professionals and experts (not the ones that designed my brother's speakers!). We all have similar goals and aligned speaker design philosophies. I am planning to implement innovative and novel technologies and shall let the appropriate patent authorities decide what is and isn't novel. Rest assured, I will certainly ask for help when I need it. I'm not offering help. Just suggesting you acquire a book - which is not a 'how to build/design a loudspeaker' guide. Rather it is a collation and dissection of all the (public domain) research done on loudspeakers and room acoustics since the early 70s. It's an invaluable reference to have. But if you're not interested, I'll leave it there. |
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Post by macca on Oct 13, 2024 8:41:38 GMT
That was his polite way to say, shut the F#ck up until you've done it yourself. I have done it myself, as I mentioned in a previous post. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 13, 2024 8:43:18 GMT
macca Thanks again for your advice Martin, but with respect, I would rather seek information in my own manner. I am well versed in vibration, structures, acoustics, electronics and filter networks. I specialised in this at university and have worked in electronic systems and advanced structures/dynamics for many years. I haven't felt the need to spell this out as I didn't feel it was necessary. I realise my approach to designing and developing speakers is not completely aligned with yours and am happy to respect you have different views on how a speaker should be designed and built. You have made it clear that my approach is perhaps 'chasing rainbows' and that I can't do anything novel (as it has already been done) . Thank you for view and it has been duly noted. Also, thanks for passing on that Toole advises to keep speaker distortion as low as possible - once again, duly noted. I really appreciate and enjoy the open discussions on this forum. However, I am happy to forge my own way and already work with a network of professionals and experts (not the ones that designed my brother's speakers!). We all have similar goals and aligned speaker design philosophies. I am planning to implement innovative and novel technologies and shall let the appropriate patent authorities decide what is and isn't novel. Rest assured, I will certainly ask for help when I need it. I'm not offering help. Just suggesting you acquire a book - which is not a 'how to build/design a loudspeaker' guide. Rather it is a collation and dissection of all the (public domain) research done on loudspeakers and room acoustics since the early 70s. It's an invaluable reference to have. But if you're not interested, I'll leave it there. Thanks Martin. I am aware of this. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 13, 2024 16:43:11 GMT
That was his polite way to say, shut the F#ck up until you've done it yourself. I have done it myself, as I mentioned in a previous post. Any details Martin? Be great to know about your previous design(s). |
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Post by macca on Oct 19, 2024 9:18:37 GMT
I have done it myself, as I mentioned in a previous post. Any details Martin? Be great to know about your previous design(s). We're going back 30 years here. First was the 'Ultimate 2 way' - 8'' Audax paper cone with Audax soft dome tweeter, in 55 litre floorstanding cabs, 3/4 inch chipboard (baltic birch ply hadn't been invented yet I don't think) all round with pine used for bracing inside. Infinite baffle. Crossover 4th order Linkwitz-Riley. No internet then, all done from books from the library (mainly 'The Loudspeaker Cookbook') and no computers. All calculations done on the back of an envelope with pen and Casio calculator. Cab was deliberately slightly smaller than optimal for the midbass to push up the Q and give a bass boost for free-space placement (my room at the time was large but very irregular with no flat walls to put speakers against). They turned out a lot better than I thought they would for a first effort, civilians were impressed. Sadly they got damaged in storage and the drivers are no longer made, it was impossible to resurrect them easily. I still have them though. Second design was a commission from a pal who was a DJ. He was buying new speakers every month and blowing the tweeters trying to get nightclub sound in his very large room. He only ever listened to the 'dance music' of the time, techno and that. I designed him another 55 litre 2 way, ported this time, with the new (at the time) 'Deflex' absorbing panels on the insides instead of wadding. That stuff was wonderful, it felt so weird you couldn't stop touching it. For tweeters I used Motorola Piezo Electric horns since you can't blow them. (There is/was a wide variety of those from a couple of quid to quite expensive, these were top of the range). Bass driver was an Audax Kevlar 8'' would take 50 watt continuous. Given the Motorola doesn't need a high pass filter there was the chance to do a simple crossover so I just specified a resistor for the tweeter and an inductor for the bass driver. These took forever to arrive from Falcon and so the bloke decided to build the speaker anyway with the mid bass running full range and no attenuation on the tweeter. When the parts did arrive I went round to retro fit them but he said he was happy with the sound as it was and didn't want me 'messing' with them. I still have those components somewhere. The inductors were air core and quite pricey, but he paid for them so what the hell. (He was a pal so I only charged him exactly what I'd paid for the parts). Anyway despite this the speakers did a pretty good job of their intended use case. I ran into him 10 years later and he was still using them. It was all a good learning exercise at putting theory into practice. As with delving into anything complex you really only learn how much you don't know. I learned it was probably better left to the professionals! I did have a design for a transmission line using 4-way JBL drivers designed for ICE use, but never got to that. Imagine my surprise (etc) when years later I saw on eBay a speaker with that exact design marketed as 'The Ultimate Loudspeaker'. Doing something truly new is never easy. |
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That's funny!
Admittedly I haven't heard many (clearly!). 
