Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2023 17:01:03 GMT
After living with the Topping E30 MKII for a few weeks now, i thought it only right to give a little bit of forum space.
Is it a "Wonder DAC" ?
As anyone who follows my forum posts will tell you, i get through a fair amount of stuff, and dacs appear to be no different. funnily enough the E30 was supposed to just be a stop gap until the Reiymo got here and conquered all comers. to be fair, that's not far off what happened, but two things that occurred since the Toppings arrival have been very surprising.
So, Lets start with the first thing:
When the E30 MKII arrived, it did so with a LPSU that came with it. Straight off the bat it sounded great. Solid sounding with great tone and good resolution. As part of the experimentation process i fitted a wall wart, and whilst it didn't cripple the E30, it definitely wasn't the same sound as i had been getting. Next up was a bit of cable swapping. In the end i was totally impressed by my pure silver 75Ohm cable, so that ended up staying. Then it was on to filters. For me, i am a big fan of "F6" which i think gave the E30 MKII a bit of soundstage space and better depth. YMMV.
This has been the combination i have stuck to until a few days back, where i poached my personal build LPSU off the Mutec and attached it to the E30. Very decent performance uplift from that. PSU's matter, and this DAC REALLY liked this PSU. The DAC is still using F6 as the filter setting, but i am now going to confess something. I am using USB....What is going on you may ask!?
Second thing:
Well during my browsing for info on the E30, i came across a set of measurements on ASR which suggested the USB output was significantly better than the Coax. Obviously, with USB being the work of the devil, i laughed it off and ignored it. However, whilst rooting round for a SD card reader, i came across my high quality USB cable (UGreen for £8 lol) i bought a few years ago. "why not" i thought and whacked it in.
Here is the gods honest truth....
Resolution has seen a significant uplift, as has transients, space, acoustic cues and filigree. It's simply an audible uplift.
This is now sounding seriously impressive, and not just because the total outlay for this SQ is under £200, but on it's own merit for SQ and performance.
When it became clear that the Reiymo would have to go, i honestly had no idea what i was going to do digital wise. The thought of having to rifle around the internet for another DAC which would undoubtably not bring me as much joy as the Reiymo was pretty disheartening. Thankfully, i have a DAC here that is not only punching WELL ABOVE it's weight, but it is also great fun to tinker with and experiment on. Whilst i have no doubt that the E30 will not be my "forever DAC", i am very confident that it's my "i am in no rush" DAC, which will allow me to scour the internet for another Aqvox, or something else that can be bought cheaply.
I am happy to report that digital does NOT need to be expensive, thanks to the Topping E30 MKII
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Post by lurch on Dec 23, 2023 20:07:22 GMT
Good to hear USB is doing it for you, if you want to play in that area as you have with other digital cables then I would suggest you get hold of a Supra Excalibur USB, I have 2 (ZenITH > Uptone USB Regen (with Tx LPS) > Black Ice. I had several well known/reviewed usb cables <£700 here when I first got the ZenITH and the Excalibur (£99) wiped the floor with all of them. The only USB cable I've had here since (a friend brought it round) that beat it was a Curious USB, seriously impressive but then I'm guess it should be for the ££s (£800ish).
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2023 21:07:47 GMT
Filter 6 is the steepest roll off, interesting you prefer that one.
1 and 3 roll off a little in the audible band. Might be audible with the right music and a tail wind and better HF hearing than me.
I cannot tell the difference between any of them but I do have a MK1 E30 so not quite the same DAC
USB looks fine on the ASR measurements? TOSLink a bit jittery but still almost 100dB below signal. Prefer Coax on mine probably for no real reason.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Dec 23, 2023 21:26:16 GMT
Maybe I'll try F6 tomorrow, I got mine today. Digital always sounds a bit more fwd and hard etched (perhaps just more 'real' compared to vinyl). Maybe F6 softens everything a tad?
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2023 21:55:04 GMT
no I see what you mean - filter 6 is the brick wall filter but it's flat beyond 20 KHz
1 or 3 if you want a bit of top end roll of in the audible band. It's very slight though.
Vinyl is just different in a million possible ways no two set ups ever sound the same. If you set your system and room up for vinyl sometimes it doesn't compliment digital.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2023 23:55:21 GMT
Good to hear USB is doing it for you, if you want to play in that area as you have with other digital cables then I would suggest you get hold of a Supra Excalibur USB, I have 2 (ZenITH > Uptone USB Regen (with Tx LPS) > Black Ice. I had several well known/reviewed usb cables <£700 here when I first got the ZenITH and the Excalibur (£99) wiped the floor with all of them. The only USB cable I've had here since (a friend brought it round) that beat it was a Curious USB, seriously impressive but then I'm guess it should be for the ££s (£800ish). I did order a Supra USB cable earlier, but not the mega money one. Full spec, proper USB.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2023 23:58:25 GMT
no I see what you mean - filter 6 is the brick wall filter but it's flat beyond 20 KHz 1 or 3 if you want a bit of top end roll of in the audible band. It's very slight though. Vinyl is just different in a million possible ways no two set ups ever sound the same. If you set your system and room up for vinyl sometimes it doesn't compliment digital. Ah, F6 with coax. I was also quite fond of F4, but some music just sounded right with F6. I haven't actually rolled them since the USB cable went in. I will do that tomorrow though. USB is better than the others according to ASR, which I currently agree with.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2023 23:59:57 GMT
Maybe I'll try F6 tomorrow, I got mine today. Digital always sounds a bit more fwd and hard etched (perhaps just more 'real' compared to vinyl). Maybe F6 softens everything a tad? Is yours a MK1?
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Dec 24, 2023 7:51:36 GMT
Maybe I'll try F6 tomorrow, I got mine today. Digital always sounds a bit more fwd and hard etched (perhaps just more 'real' compared to vinyl). Maybe F6 softens everything a tad? Is yours a MK1? It's the mkII. I don't really know how mine sounds yet as have only listened to the radio through a chromecast Audio. Initial impressions with a £30 streamer are very, very good - bass is epic and there is loads of clarity and detail. There is a slight glare to some voices but that is likely the Chromecast. I shall judge the Topping more when I have a better source. Not tried the filters yet. The comment regarding "fwd and hard etched digital" was about digital in general.
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Post by lurch on Dec 24, 2023 8:04:23 GMT
Good to hear USB is doing it for you, if you want to play in that area as you have with other digital cables then I would suggest you get hold of a Supra Excalibur USB, I have 2 (ZenITH > Uptone USB Regen (with Tx LPS) > Black Ice. I had several well known/reviewed usb cables <£700 here when I first got the ZenITH and the Excalibur (£99) wiped the floor with all of them. The only USB cable I've had here since (a friend brought it round) that beat it was a Curious USB, seriously impressive but then I'm guess it should be for the ££s (£800ish). I did order a Supra USB cable earlier, but not the mega money one. Full spec, proper USB. Ahh, the Supra 2.0, nice cable, had it here at the start of my cable trials, and was definitely better than most of the <£200 cables I tried (Chord, Atlas, TQ) . Only comparable one was an AQ (£100ish) Vs £34 for the 2.0, but the Excalibur was THE one, ££s to performance wise. I know, you, have the Mutec, but I have a spare (don't ask) Uptone Audio USB Regen and an AQ Jitterbug here if you want to have a play?
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 24, 2023 8:12:45 GMT
The comment regarding "fwd and hard etched digital" was about digital in general. As Martin said, if your system is optimised for your vinyl playback, then digital is unlikely to sound quite right. Vinyl isn't accurate, so we have to tweak and customise the playback chain to make it do what we like. It's unlikely that a digital source placed in that system will provide the same enjoyment.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2023 8:15:04 GMT
It's the mkII. I don't really know how mine sounds yet as have only listened to the radio through a chromecast Audio. Initial impressions with a £30 streamer are very, very good - bass is epic and there is loads of clarity and detail. There is a slight glare to some voices but that is likely the Chromecast. I shall judge the Topping more when I have a better source. Not tried the filters yet. The comment regarding "fwd and hard etched digital" was about digital in general. Ah, got ya.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Dec 24, 2023 8:28:41 GMT
The comment regarding "fwd and hard etched digital" was about digital in general. As Martin said, if your system is optimised for your vinyl playback, then digital is unlikely to sound quite right. Vinyl isn't accurate, so we have to tweak and customise the playback chain to make it do what we like. It's unlikely that a digital source placed in that system will provide the same enjoyment. We shall see. TBH, I'm loving it so far. However, I need to judge it more with a decent source. Initial signs are that the system will happily and competently play digital too. I was a little concerned that the Purifi would be too transparent and unforgiving, but so far the sound has good body and richness on digital too. Edit: digital is often too 'HiFi' for me, but not an issue here, which is a relief.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2023 8:32:33 GMT
The comment regarding "fwd and hard etched digital" was about digital in general. Vinyl isn't accurate, so we have to tweak and customise the playback chain to make it do what we like. That's going to need qualifying
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 24, 2023 8:42:16 GMT
Vinyl isn't accurate, so we have to tweak and customise the playback chain to make it do what we like. That's going to need qualifying The previous para did say 'then digital is unlikely to sound quite right' Viz. Unlikely. Not never. In my (quite extensive) experience of vinyl playback, and from what others say, every single cartridge, tonearm, turntable, phonostage provides a different experience in a way that makes digital and amplifier electronics sound very samey indeed. I think vinyl is much more of a sonically manipulated medium than digital. I suspect that's a big part of its attraction tbh. Ymmv
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Post by macca on Dec 24, 2023 8:56:29 GMT
Just slight variations in the RIAA equalization will make audible difference, then you have cartridge FR, wear, how it's set up.
The discs themselves have huge variations between pressings. Tonearms are not all the same in performance. And then the motor unit and how it responds to airborne vibration, speed consistency, wow, flutter, rumble.
It's an expensive crap-shoot!
Digital is the leveller, even poor people can have perfect, accurate replay - up to the speaker binding posts anyway. After that is where you need to spend the money.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2023 9:12:14 GMT
Ok, so the various parts of the analogue playback chain have an effect on what what you hear. Ok I agree with that, but that's been the case with digital here.
Mutec in or out sounds different, no two DACs have sounded the same, no two streamers, no two digital cables, no two filters, streaming Vs NAS Vs Ripped files on a streamer, hard drives SSD Vs HDD, USB Vs Coax VS AES, MQA VS DSD VS PCM, 16.24.32 bit... etc, etc....
Its not as if digital is immune to tailoring the flavour!
One could argue that vinyl has more "bits" than CD, a higher "sample rate" than any digital file, and is a verbatim copy of what was recorded (if done with analogue recording equipment) than any digital file would be of the same recording.
Digital recordings are different, for obvious reasons.
The difference is that digital appears to have been put in a path of "best behaviour" by ASR. Their DAC ratings carry weight, so anything that doesn't measure up is now pretty much getting that held against it.
This has led to the "samey" sound Jerry refers to.....they are all making the same stuff with the same chips to hit those ASR markers. For instance, there is a ROHN DAC chip now on the market, but it doesn't reach the AKM or Sabre levels of SINAD, so it will not get used. If it does, it won't measure as well and will find itself way down the rankings. No manufacturer is going to push that chip as far as they can due to this. BurrBrown have literally stopped making a shed load of chips due to the demand for akm and sabre.
But apparently it's all inaudible!
The issue with vinyl replay is that 90% of vinyl replay equipment is simply not good enough. Had there been an ASR in the 70's/80's, analogue would have seen manufacturers striving for those performance markers, and the also-rans being given little market space for not meeting the standards.
Digital is cheap to make. It's not easy, or cheap, to make good vinyl replay equipment, but there is nothing like quality vinyl when you hear it on top quality kit.
There is no accuracy issue with vinyl IF you buy well.
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Post by macca on Dec 24, 2023 9:46:46 GMT
Ok, so the various parts of the analogue playback chain have an effect on what what you hear. Ok I agree with that, but that's been the case with digital here. Mutec in or out sounds different, no two DACs have sounded the same, no two streamers, no two digital cables, no two filters, streaming Vs NAS Vs Ripped files on a streamer, hard drives SSD Vs HDD, USB Vs Coax VS AES, MQA VS DSD VS PCM, 16.24.32 bit... etc, etc.... Its not as if digital is immune to tailoring the flavour! One could argue that vinyl has more "bits" than CD, a higher "sample rate" than any digital file, and is a verbatim copy of what was recorded (if done with analogue recording equipment) than any digital file would be of the same recording. Digital recordings are different, for obvious reasons. The difference is that digital appears to have been put in a path of "best behaviour" by ASR. Their DAC ratings carry weight, so anything that doesn't measure up is now pretty much getting that held against it. This has led to the "samey" sound Jerry refers to.....they are all making the same stuff with the same chips to hit those ASR markers. For instance, there is a ROHN DAC chip now on the market, but it doesn't reach the AKM or Sabre levels of SINAD, so it will not get used. If it does, it won't measure as well and will find itself way down the rankings. No manufacturer is going to push that chip as far as they can due to this. BurrBrown have literally stopped making a shed load of chips due to the demand for akm and sabre. But apparently it's all inaudible! The issue with vinyl replay is that 90% of vinyl replay equipment is simply not good enough. Had there been an ASR in the 70's/80's, analogue would have seen manufacturers striving for those performance markers, and the also-rans being given little market space for not meeting the standards. Digital is cheap to make. It's not easy, or cheap, to make good vinyl replay equipment, but there is nothing like quality vinyl when you hear it on top quality kit. There is no accuracy issue with vinyl IF you buy well. No, I don't agree with any of that. First of all a lot of the perceived differences with 'Mutec in or out sounds different, no two DACs have sounded the same, no two streamers, no two digital cables, no two filters, streaming Vs NAS Vs Ripped files on a streamer, hard drives SSD Vs HDD, USB Vs Coax VS AES, MQA VS DSD VS PCM, 16.24.32 bit... etc, etc....' will vanish if you listen with some controls (maybe not all of them but mostly) I won't get into the vinyl has more bits etc - it just doesn't. 'The samey sound' - this I don't really understand. If I was buying a guitar or a piano I would care about the integral sound character of that instrument, but for hi-fi equipment I want to recreate the sound of the recordings of those instruments - I don't want a DAC layering its own sound over that. I wouldn't buy a painting and change the colours, why would I want to do that with a recording? The DACs ASR recommend have no sound of their own - that's the whole point! That's what makes them 'good' DACs. The differences we want to hear are the differences in the sound of the recordings.
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 24, 2023 10:02:14 GMT
Oli >>This has led to the "samey" sound Jerry refers to.....<<
That's not what I meant, really.
I positively rejoice in the sonic differences between digital and amplification components. That's why I've thoroughly enjoyed decades of frequent box swapping.
But ime and imo vinyl replay takes this to another level. I don't think it's inherently more accurate at all. Quite the contrary it's a recipe for making musical meals whatever flavour and texture that you subjectively like.
That's not intended as criticism. Potentially it's going to be more enjoyable, because it can be fine tuned more precisely to whatever you want. And when it comes down to it, maybe that's what it's all about.
The reasons I dumped vinyl, and glad to be rid of it, weren't musical ones. Practical surface noise issues did my head in (catastrophic for a lot of classical music listening). Although if I had maintained my vinyl interest, these days LP costs and music availability would be a distinct damper as well. You can't be a serious classical listener solely on the music that gets released on vinyl these days.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2023 12:53:24 GMT
Ok, so the various parts of the analogue playback chain have an effect on what what you hear. Ok I agree with that, but that's been the case with digital here. Mutec in or out sounds different, no two DACs have sounded the same, no two streamers, no two digital cables, no two filters, streaming Vs NAS Vs Ripped files on a streamer, hard drives SSD Vs HDD, USB Vs Coax VS AES, MQA VS DSD VS PCM, 16.24.32 bit... etc, etc.... Its not as if digital is immune to tailoring the flavour! One could argue that vinyl has more "bits" than CD, a higher "sample rate" than any digital file, and is a verbatim copy of what was recorded (if done with analogue recording equipment) than any digital file would be of the same recording. Digital recordings are different, for obvious reasons. The difference is that digital appears to have been put in a path of "best behaviour" by ASR. Their DAC ratings carry weight, so anything that doesn't measure up is now pretty much getting that held against it. This has led to the "samey" sound Jerry refers to.....they are all making the same stuff with the same chips to hit those ASR markers. For instance, there is a ROHN DAC chip now on the market, but it doesn't reach the AKM or Sabre levels of SINAD, so it will not get used. If it does, it won't measure as well and will find itself way down the rankings. No manufacturer is going to push that chip as far as they can due to this. BurrBrown have literally stopped making a shed load of chips due to the demand for akm and sabre. But apparently it's all inaudible! The issue with vinyl replay is that 90% of vinyl replay equipment is simply not good enough. Had there been an ASR in the 70's/80's, analogue would have seen manufacturers striving for those performance markers, and the also-rans being given little market space for not meeting the standards. Digital is cheap to make. It's not easy, or cheap, to make good vinyl replay equipment, but there is nothing like quality vinyl when you hear it on top quality kit. There is no accuracy issue with vinyl IF you buy well. 1) No, I don't agree with any of that. 2) First of all a lot of the perceived differences with 'Mutec in or out sounds different, no two DACs have sounded the same, no two streamers, no two digital cables, no two filters, streaming Vs NAS Vs Ripped files on a streamer, hard drives SSD Vs HDD, USB Vs Coax VS AES, MQA VS DSD VS PCM, 16.24.32 bit... etc, etc....' will vanish if you listen with some controls (maybe not all of them but mostly) 3) I won't get into the vinyl has more bits etc - it just doesn't. 4) The DACs ASR recommend have no sound of their own - that's the whole point! That's what makes them 'good' DACs. The differences we want to hear are the differences in the sound of the recordings. 1) I'm surprised 😂 2) I disagree. 3) Well, it definitely has a higher sample rate, does it not? 4) Exactly. Samey.
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Post by bencat on Dec 24, 2023 14:04:36 GMT
Vinyl my does not have any sample rate .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2023 14:38:59 GMT
Vinyl my does not have any sample rate . Exactly
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 24, 2023 15:14:30 GMT
Now we need someone to mention the gaps in the music between the digital samples and this thread will be complete. 😂
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2023 15:28:15 GMT
Now we need someone to mention the gaps in the music between the digital samples and this thread will be complete. 😂 There must be some
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Post by firebottle on Dec 24, 2023 16:15:16 GMT
Now we need someone to mention the gaps in the music between the digital samples and this thread will be complete. 😂 There must be some Nyquist?
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Dec 24, 2023 17:51:32 GMT
"I won't get into the vinyl has more bits etc - it just doesn't." maccaI've just been to the pub for a few hours and am catching up... What did I miss? Why are we talking about bits with vinyl? Although, there are laser carts now, are there not....? Perhaps vinyl could be 1s and 0s too. Let's bring vinyl into the 21st century.
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Post by bencat on Dec 24, 2023 18:09:44 GMT
Jason I think this is the start of silly season the days are getting longer and it messes with some people's brain . I think it you ignore it then it passes .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2023 18:15:14 GMT
"I won't get into the vinyl has more bits etc - it just doesn't." maccaI've just been to the pub for a few hours and am catching up... What did I miss? Why are we talking about bits with vinyl? Although, there are laser carts now, are there not....? Perhaps vinyl could be 1s and 0s too. Let's bring vinyl into the 21st century. I put vinyl "bits" in a post earlier on in the thread earlier on, which wasn't what I was meaning to put. I was refering to the sample rate and got it wrong. No harm done. Vinyl has about 12bits, I believe....if it were equated the same way. Anyway, have a good Christmas all 🎄
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2023 18:17:56 GMT
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Post by antonio on Dec 24, 2023 18:36:06 GMT
I'm sure there are pre-amp/dac's that convert analogue to digital before replaying. I can fully understand Jerry's dislike of surface noise on vinyl, especially listening to classical music. I no longer miss vinyl and all the faff that goes with it.
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