Arke
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Post by Arke on May 4, 2023 12:29:20 GMT
I can probably help with this one... The Ektas, 851s and the Vaders all have Alumen Z cap on the tweeter cap. There is one exception - one pair of Ektas has Audyn MKP plus on the tweeter. I just noticed on the Ekta Mkii level 2 package they use the cheaper Superior Z there rather than the Alumen Z in the Level 1 package. My interpretation of reviews on these caps is that the Alumen Z is cleaner but also with more contrast than the Superior Z, both outstanding but the Alumen clearly a step up (ahem!). So that 'contrast' might be part of what shows poorer recordings for what they are, just a guess. The caps will certainly have an effect on the speaker's resolving power, however, IMO the actual tweeter used will have a larger impact. The Ektas, 851s and CNO4s all use different tweeters. The CNO4s have 29mm domes (vs 25mm on the others) so for me this adds more body to the HF. The Vader/CNO4s tweeters are £350 each too
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Post by brucew268 on May 4, 2023 12:32:31 GMT
I just noticed on the Ekta Mkii level 2 package they use the cheaper Superior Z there rather than the Alumen Z in the Level 1 package. My interpretation of reviews on these caps is that the Alumen Z is cleaner but also with more contrast than the Superior Z, both outstanding but the Alumen clearly a step up (ahem!). So that 'contrast' might be part of what shows poorer recordings for what they are, just a guess. The caps will certainly have an effect on the speaker's resolving power, however, IMO the actual tweeter used will have a larger impact. The Ektas, 851s and CNO4s all use different tweeters. The CNO4s have 29mm domes (vs 25mm on the others) so for me this adds more body to the HF. The Vader/CNO4s tweeters are £350 each too
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optical
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Post by optical on May 4, 2023 12:39:12 GMT
I just noticed on the Ekta Mkii level 2 package they use the cheaper Superior Z there rather than the Alumen Z in the Level 1 package. My interpretation of reviews on these caps is that the Alumen Z is cleaner but also with more contrast than the Superior Z, both outstanding but the Alumen clearly a step up (ahem!). So that 'contrast' might be part of what shows poorer recordings for what they are, just a guess. The caps will certainly have an effect on the speaker's resolving power, however, IMO the actual tweeter used will have a larger impact. The Ektas, 851s and CNO4s all use different tweeters. The CNO4s have 29mm domes (vs 25mm on the others) so for me this adds more body to the HF. The Vader/CNO4s tweeters are £350 each too I know I referenced some recordings potentially sounding a little "shrill/over-egged" (attributing this to the recording/mastering) but the CNO4's seem to have the ability to tame some of these, at least a lot better than some other speakers I have heard (not done direct comparison with Ekta's etc though). The tweeter size/quality may also have a lot to do with this, as Jason suggests. Bad parts on recordings can remain bad, but somehow, less bad, if that makes sense. The CNO4's ability to unravel midrange complexities though, that is something quite spectacular. There are notes within notes that they are able to separate which just brings a smile to the face.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on May 4, 2023 12:51:18 GMT
The caps will certainly have an effect on the speaker's resolving power, however, IMO the actual tweeter used will have a larger impact. The Ektas, 851s and CNO4s all use different tweeters. The CNO4s have 29mm domes (vs 25mm on the others) so for me this adds more body to the HF. The Vader/CNO4s tweeters are £350 each too I know I referenced some recordings potentially sounding a little "shrill/over-egged" (attributing this to the recording/mastering) but the CNO4's seem to have the ability to tame some of these, at least a lot better than some other speakers I have heard (not done direct comparison with Ekta's etc though). The tweeter size/quality may also have a lot to do with this, as Jason suggests. Bad parts on recordings can remain bad, but somehow, less bad, if that makes sense. The CNO4's ability to unravel midrange complexities though, that is something quite spectacular. There are notes within notes that they are able to separate which just brings a smile to the face. I agree Chris, I don't fully understand it! The Vaders/CNO4s somehow tame my more edgy and shrill recordings. It is confusing as they somehow make my 'unlistenable' records listenable, BUT they don't lack detail or presence. It doesn't seem possible, but I'll happily accept it!
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Post by ergun on Oct 3, 2024 22:02:42 GMT
I know I referenced some recordings potentially sounding a little "shrill/over-egged" (attributing this to the recording/mastering) but the CNO4's seem to have the ability to tame some of these, at least a lot better than some other speakers I have heard (not done direct comparison with Ekta's etc though). The tweeter size/quality may also have a lot to do with this, as Jason suggests. Bad parts on recordings can remain bad, but somehow, less bad, if that makes sense. The CNO4's ability to unravel midrange complexities though, that is something quite spectacular. There are notes within notes that they are able to separate which just brings a smile to the face. I agree Chris, I don't fully understand it! The Vaders/CNO4s somehow tame my more edgy and shrill recordings. It is confusing as they somehow make my 'unlistenable' records listenable, BUT they don't lack detail or presence. It doesn't seem possible, but I'll happily accept it! Putting aside the drivers used and their technical features, when I examine the measurement graphs of Revelator-851, Cno-4 and Nextel-2F, there is a drop curve after 15khz in the high frequency band of Cno-4 and Nextel-2f. There is a peak between 15-18khz in Revelator-851. Could this drop in the 29mm driver be softening the end sound?
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 4, 2024 7:16:44 GMT
I agree Chris, I don't fully understand it! The Vaders/CNO4s somehow tame my more edgy and shrill recordings. It is confusing as they somehow make my 'unlistenable' records listenable, BUT they don't lack detail or presence. It doesn't seem possible, but I'll happily accept it! Putting aside the drivers used and their technical features, when I examine the measurement graphs of Revelator-851, Cno-4 and Nextel-2F, there is a drop curve after 15khz in the high frequency band of Cno-4 and Nextel-2f. There is a peak between 15-18khz in Revelator-851. Could this drop in the 29mm driver be softening the end sound? I doubt you would hear those changes above 15KHz. I am tuning speakers at the moment, and changing roll off above 15KHz is pretty much inaudible. Bright or forward sound is usually attributed to 2-7khz (the presence region). The FR is just one piece of the puzzle. You'd needbto study dispersion and all THD characteristics to understand more. I am testing (more to come) a much cleaner and more detailed Textreme tweeter at the moment. In one respect it is less 'smooth', BUT it is more realistic and more vibrant than a soft dome. I would argue the hard Textreme dome sounds more real, however, the majority of people may prefer the smoother sound of the fabric dome. I belive it depends a lot of your ears, system and room.
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Post by macca on Oct 4, 2024 7:39:37 GMT
I've owned speakers where the tweeters probably cost 50p bought in bulk but you could still practically hear the rivets on the cymbals.
More expensive tweeters can have the advantage of wider dispersion, higher power handling and perhaps can be crossed lower but any driver of any type and price will sound good used within its limitations.
Better drivers give more flexibility in the design but they don't have mystical qualities beyond what is in their performance specs.
Particularly, the idea that drivers have inherent qualities based on the material they are made of should be dismissed. For example, metal dome tweeters generally have better power handling but won't sound different to another type just because they are metal based. They are still just pushing air movements to the ears and air movement cannot contain different 'qualities'.
Problems with tweeters being harsh or shrill are due to incompetent design, trying to cross them over too low, nothing to do with metal vs other materials.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 4, 2024 8:03:19 GMT
I've owned speakers where the tweeters probably cost 50p bought in bulk but you could still practically hear the rivets on the cymbals. More expensive tweeters can have the advantage of wider dispersion, higher power handling and perhaps can be crossed lower but any driver of any type and price will sound good used within its limitations.Better drivers give more flexibility in the design but they don't have mystical qualities beyond what is in their performance specs. Particularly, the idea that drivers have inherent qualities based on the material they are made of should be dismissed. For example, metal dome tweeters generally have better power handling but won't sound different to another type just because they are metal based. They are still just pushing air movements to the ears and air movement cannot contain different 'qualities'. Problems with tweeters being harsh or shrill are due to incompetent design, trying to cross them over too low, nothing to do with metal vs other materials. Agreed, there is never a never a way to know the sound of hard vs soft and it depends on the design/specs too. The harmonic distortion characteristics and the technical characteristics of a driver WILL affect the sound profile. I can demonstrate to people what a 2nd and 3rd harmonic characteristic (for example) does to the sound. "Better drivers give more flexibility in the design but they don't have mystical qualities beyond what is in their performance specs." Different driver materials do have different performance specs and this does affect the sound profile. The problem is that most manufacturers don't publish enough detail to understand these differences at a technical level. Also, very few people would understand how these detailed specs translate into performance.
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Post by macca on Oct 4, 2024 8:11:47 GMT
I've owned speakers where the tweeters probably cost 50p bought in bulk but you could still practically hear the rivets on the cymbals. More expensive tweeters can have the advantage of wider dispersion, higher power handling and perhaps can be crossed lower but any driver of any type and price will sound good used within its limitations.Better drivers give more flexibility in the design but they don't have mystical qualities beyond what is in their performance specs. Particularly, the idea that drivers have inherent qualities based on the material they are made of should be dismissed. For example, metal dome tweeters generally have better power handling but won't sound different to another type just because they are metal based. They are still just pushing air movements to the ears and air movement cannot contain different 'qualities'. Problems with tweeters being harsh or shrill are due to incompetent design, trying to cross them over too low, nothing to do with metal vs other materials. Different driver materials do have different performance specs and this does affect the sound profile. . Yes this is precisely my point - it's a myth that metal drivers 'sound metallic' or that paper drivers sound 'papery'. How they perform is entirely quantifiable.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 4, 2024 8:23:10 GMT
Different driver materials do have different performance specs and this does affect the sound profile. . Yes this is precisely my point - it's a myth that metal drivers 'sound metallic' or that paper drivers sound 'papery'. How they perform is entirely quantifiable. Yes, in general, different materials effect the technical characteristics/measurements and these effect the sound. So paper isn't 'papery' sounding, BUT paper will generally have different THD characteristics, different break up characteristics, different impulse response, different FR, different resonance... These WILL affect the sound profile.
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Post by macca on Oct 4, 2024 8:46:15 GMT
yes agreed.
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