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Post by Arke on Jan 16, 2023 20:38:55 GMT
Measurements and specifically speaker measurements when choosing speakers have sparked some debate lately. I thought I'd start this thread to begin exploring speaker measurements, their advantages and possible pitfalls. I realise this may spark further debate and will be happy to engage up to a point. If we simply don't agree on a point or we are continuing a circular argument there may be little point in perpetuating it.
Some advantages of measurements:
- They provide some general information on a speaker's performance and its compatibility with your room/system.
- They point to potential issues with the speakers
- They can be great for comparing certain key performance parameters (for example Bass response)
Some pitfalls of measurements:
- Many speakers have no detailed measurements, does that mean that they are bad performers and should be discounted?
- Measurements are undertaken by many bodies/parties. They are not all necessarily accurate or consistent in their approach. One party may measure a speaker and show a +3db peak at 1kHz another may show a trough at 1kHz, which is right?
- Many people do not understand measurements enough to interpret them. This is not meant as an insult, even trained acousticians can make mistakes and misread complex measurements. I get many questions concerning Troels measurements - unfortunately, most of the time people have misunderstood what the measurements are actually saying.
- Just because 2 speakers measure the same on a certain parameter it does NOT mean they will sound the same. Two speakers that have a F3 of 37Hz will not necessarily have the same bass characteristics/performance.
- The room/speaker interaction is often more important/dominant than the speaker's measured performance from a 3rd party. For example, a speaker may have a lift of 3db from 4-7kHz (therefore you discount it), however, your room may be heavily damped and causing a 5dB reduction from 4-7Hz. A perfectly flat speaker may not sound best in your room.
These are just some examples I will try to elaborate further in due course. The next post will delve deeper into bass response...
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Post by firebottle on Jan 16, 2023 20:58:32 GMT
Another important factor that can differ is test microphone height and distance from the speaker.
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Post by Arke on Jan 16, 2023 21:04:56 GMT
Another important factor that can differ is test microphone height and distance from the speaker. Thanks Alan, appreciated. That was partly (but not explicitly) covered by the point that different parties (some more adept than others) will use different methods/equipment and can get different results on the same speakers. EDIT: It's an extremely good point as different speakers are designed to be listened to at different heights... Some with ear level at tweeter height, some at mid driver height and some between the two. Measurements aren't always taken at the correct height, so (as you say) will be incorrect. |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 17, 2023 10:05:56 GMT
My take on speaker measurements, coming from a scientific academic background and mode of thought, is that I'll leave it to the manufacturer rather than apply my limited knowledge to a field that I don't have an in depth knowledge of.
If the manufacturer wants to use measurements, and I hope they do, then that's fine by me.
It's then up to me as a consumer to decide whether or not to buy based on performance with the intended function - viz reproducing music.
I had no idea what the measurements were on my MBLs (there was, and probably still is, very little published) but I knew from listening that I wanted them.
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Post by misterc on Jan 17, 2023 12:40:18 GMT
Howabout a REAL in room response instead of an anochoic chamber, who's 'real' response is one of the quietest places on the planet save for a Telsa sales showroom
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Post by Arke on Jan 17, 2023 12:51:45 GMT
Howabout a REAL in room response instead of an anochoic chamber, who's 'real' response is one of the quietest places on the planet save for a Telsa sales showroom It would certainly be more indicative than an anechoic chamber. However, as you know, the response would vary massively from room to room. Do they use a REAL 5m long room or a 6m room, or a 7m room? Is it square (hopefully not!)? Are all dims linked to golden ratio to minimise room issues? Where are the speakers and where is the listener? It may be a minefield to interpret. I think REAL room measurements would worry manufacturers - it'll make their speakers look pretty poor from 20-200Hz. I am planning to do more room measurements soon, this will serve to show the profound effect the room is having. |
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Post by misterc on Jan 17, 2023 15:42:56 GMT
It's about how many units they can sell at the end of the day, which is why we as a company always preform a full RTA of any speaker we feel would be in compromising room. Too many speakers purchased withn the heart rather than the head. I have around 200 Gb of room measurment data from over the years with hundreds of speakers. Funny thing is, three brands we have realised have a consisitancy good in room responce with a wide varity of spaces funny that!
Real room measurments concern myself as we wish to find the best option for the client.
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Post by Arke on Jan 17, 2023 18:04:14 GMT
It's about how many units they can sell at the end of the day, which is why we as a company always preform a full RTA of any speaker we feel would be in compromising room. Too many speakers purchased withn the heart rather than the head. I have around 200 Gb of room measurment data from over the years with hundreds of speakers. Funny thing is, three brands we have realised have a consisitancy good in room responce with a wide varity of spaces funny that!
Real room measurments concern myself as we wish to find the best option for the client.
Very wise. It is definitely good to have lots of room measurements. I shall be measuring all of my speakers in my rooms. My current room has a strong mode at 32Hz, so can be great for speakers that roll of at 35-40Hz as it gives them a flat in room performance to 30Hz. Some speakers are definitely less susceptible to boundary reinforcement/interference. Although it can be hard not to excite room modes. |
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Post by macca on Jan 28, 2023 7:55:21 GMT
Measurements and specifically speaker measurements when choosing speakers have sparked some debate lately. I thought I'd start this thread to begin exploring speaker measurements, their advantages and possible pitfalls. I realise this may spark further debate and will be happy to engage up to a point. If we simply don't agree on a point or we are continuing a circular argument there may be little point in perpetuating it. Some advantages of measurements: - They provide some general information on a speaker's performance and its compatibility with your room/system. - They point to potential issues with the speakers - They can be great for comparing certain key performance parameters (for example Bass response) Some pitfalls of measurements: - Many speakers have no detailed measurements, does that mean that they are bad performers and should be discounted? - Measurements are undertaken by many bodies/parties. They are not all necessarily accurate or consistent in their approach. One party may measure a speaker and show a +3db peak at 1kHz another may show a trough at 1kHz, which is right? - Many people do not understand measurements enough to interpret them. This is not meant as an insult, even trained acousticians can make mistakes and misread complex measurements. I get many questions concerning Troels measurements - unfortunately, most of the time people have misunderstood what the measurements are actually saying. - Just because 2 speakers measure the same on a certain parameter it does NOT mean they will sound the same. Two speakers that have a F3 of 37Hz will not necessarily have the same bass characteristics/performance. - The room/speaker interaction is often more important/dominant than the speaker's measured performance from a 3rd party. For example, a speaker may have a lift of 3db from 4-7kHz (therefore you discount it), however, your room may be heavily damped and causing a 5dB reduction from 4-7Hz. A perfectly flat speaker may not sound best in your room. These are just some examples I will try to elaborate further in due course. The next post will delve deeper into bass response...
Probably. A manufacturer confident in their product will publish measurements, or send the speaker to an independent tester. - Measurements are undertaken by many bodies/parties. They are not all necessarily accurate or consistent in their approach. Now we have the Klippel machine those days are gone. ASR and Erins Audio Corner both have these. Measurements are consistent. They are also consistent with the measuring process used by Stereophile. Any of these three are a reliable source of independent measurements. Many people do not understand measurements enough to interpret them.
True but measurements are usually accompanied by an explanation, this is the case for the three sources mentioned above. In any case you don't need to be an expert to spot a wonky FR - The room/speaker interaction is often more important/dominant than the speaker's measured performance from a 3rd party. For example, a speaker may have a lift of 3db from 4-7kHz (therefore you discount it), however, your room may be heavily damped and causing a 5dB reduction from 4-7Hz. A perfectly flat speaker may not sound best in your room.This is a huge oversimplification. The room would need to be dulling the sound enormously, I can't think of any normal living room having that property. Bright, reflective, underdamped rooms are commonplace, but the opposite - well I would say very rare but I can't think of a single example IME. In any case buying a bad speaker to fix a bad room is completely the wrong approach .
Some people (about 1 in 5) don't prefer speakers with a flat FR and for that we have Audionote, or Lowther, or one of a number of brands. But if you don't already know what you are conditioned to like then buying a speaker with a wonky FR is a good way to maximise the chances of you being dissatisfied with it long term. |
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Post by macca on Jan 28, 2023 8:07:46 GMT
Howabout a REAL in room response instead of an anochoic chamber, who's 'real' response is one of the quietest places on the planet save for a Telsa sales showroom I'm sure that you do understand why anechoic measurements are relevant. Klippel will also give an estimated 'in room' response which is a useful guide, and Stereophile do both simulated anechoic and in-room measurements. |
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Post by Arke on Jan 28, 2023 9:31:50 GMT
macca. Thanks for your reiterating your views regarding measurements. "If we simply don't agree on a point or we are continuing a circular argument there may be little point in perpetuating it." from my original post. These are all points we have discussed at length, so I don't think it's fair on people to go over the same points. I can completely understand that using measurements is what works best for you and allows you to choose the best equipment for you. Others prefer to listen only and others prefer a combination of listening and measurements. I am happy to provide measurements and/or demos.
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Post by macca on Jan 28, 2023 9:31:58 GMT
As with much in hi-fi (and music) everything eventually circles back to what we personally like.
If we take a specific example of a speaker that measures poorly - Klipsch Cornwall. They have a midrange colouration which is there on all types of music. It would irritate me, but since there are people who have used these speakers for decades, it clearly doesn't bother them.
Lets say they had a fire or something, speakers destroyed, they can't afford another set. They have to find something cheaper they will like.
They can look at how the Cornwall measured and then look for other speakers with similar measurements, odds are that they will like them too.
'You cannot tell how a speaker will sound from the measurements' is oft-repeated statement but although we can accept it prima face anyone coming out with this hasn't really thought about it in any depth. For many people a speaker with no sound of its own is the ideal, since we would then just be listening to the sound of the recording with nothing added or taken away. But this isn't for everyone since tastes in presentation differ, plus very few speakers come close to that ideal and those that do are expensive and usually active.
So to know one's own taste in speakers is very important when choosing them. And knowing how those tastes marry up to measurement is very useful since it means we do not have to demo every speaker in existence before we can choose one, or at least narrow down to a shortlist of speakers to audition. Without measurements, and knowing how the measurements marry up to what we like, we are shooting in the dark. We might score a hit but it will be by chance.
Say you had five grand for speakers and you randomly audition a few speakers based on what other people recommend. You then buy one of them and you are happy with it. How do you know you got the best proposition for your five grand? Maybe you could have got the same performance for two grand? Or maybe you could have had something even better for your five grand. This is where measurements are invaluable - and not just for speakers.
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Post by macca on Jan 28, 2023 9:46:09 GMT
macca . Thanks for your reiterating your views regarding measurements. "If we simply don't agree on a point or we are continuing a circular argument there may be little point in perpetuating it." from my original post. These are all points we have discussed at length, so I don't think it's fair on people to go over the same points. I can completely understand that using measurements is what works best for you and allows you to choose the best equipment for you. Others prefer to listen only and others prefer a combination of listening and measurements. I am happy to provide measurements and/or demos. I think we do broadly agree which is probably the closest it is possible to get with something like hi-fi  My intention was to qualify some of the points that you made. For example inconsistency in measurements between different sources is rare and not really a problem for the reasons I gave. It has nothing to do with my own personal approach to buying equipment, which I have not explained and which is more complex than just 'Using measurements'. I'd always recommend that someone demo an expensive speaker before buying it, regardless of the measurements. |
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Post by Arke on Jan 28, 2023 17:07:27 GMT
macca, sorry I didn't mean to be dismissive of your points, I'd just rather back up all my points in the original post with a lot more evidence and actual measurements. This is not something I can produce straight away as it will take weeks or months to properly back up some of my assertions/experience with measurements. Exchanging a series of posts where you say one thing and I say another will achieve very little. For example, when you say: "This is a huge oversimplification. The room would need to be dulling the sound enormously, I can't think of any normal living room having that property. Bright, reflective, underdamped rooms are commonplace, but the opposite - well I would say very rare but I can't think of a single example IME." I could say "I'm afraid that is not the case in my experience and based on my measurements". However, that will not convince you and I do not want to keep batting the same points backwards and forwards. I am compiling a suite of measurements that will indeed show that standard domestic environments vary in damping a lot more than people think. I accept that you won't take my word for it, however, I would rather provide actual evidence and people can decide for themselves. That is obviously just one example, I shall address many points in due course.
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Post by savvypaul on Jan 28, 2023 18:40:20 GMT
But if 8 out of 10 cats all preferred Whiskas, did the other 2 prefer Lesley Judd? About 6 in every 5 statistics are made up... |
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Post by macca on Jan 29, 2023 9:23:29 GMT
macca , sorry I didn't mean to be dismissive of your points, I'd just rather back up all my points in the original post with a lot more evidence and actual measurements. This is not something I can produce straight away as it will take weeks or months to properly back up some of my assertions/experience with measurements. Exchanging a series of posts where you say one thing and I say another will achieve very little. For example, when you say: "This is a huge oversimplification. The room would need to be dulling the sound enormously, I can't think of any normal living room having that property. Bright, reflective, underdamped rooms are commonplace, but the opposite - well I would say very rare but I can't think of a single example IME." I could say "I'm afraid that is not the case in my experience and based on my measurements". However, that will not convince you and I do not want to keep batting the same points backwards and forwards. I am compiling a suite of measurements that will indeed show that standard domestic environments vary in damping a lot more than people think. I accept that you won't take my word for it, however, I would rather provide actual evidence and people can decide for themselves. That is obviously just one example, I shall address many points in due course. I am sure you will be able to find outlying situations of rooms that ae over-damped. I said it is unusual not that it would never happen. My point was you don't design the speaker FR to fit the room, you design for flat anechoic then passively treat the room or use EQ, or both, to get the desired response curve. |
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Post by macca on Jan 29, 2023 9:30:14 GMT
But if 8 out of 10 cats all preferred Whiskas, did the other 2 prefer Lesley Judd? About 6 in every 5 statistics are made up... Harman Kardon researched speaker preference fairly extensively,, that was their conclusion. Since they are a mass-market vendor of speakers it was obviously important to them to get it right from a financial point of view. Surprised you are unaware of their research given you work in the industry. 1 in 5 punters is still a big market for the more...'interesting' design of speaker, so I shouldn't worry. |
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Post by Arke on Jan 29, 2023 12:18:20 GMT
macca"I am sure you will be able to find outlying situations of rooms that ae over-damped. I said it is unusual not that it would never happen." I shall publish some evidence in due course, as I'd like a reasonable sample of data and rooms. People can decide for themselves what are outliers, usual and unusual. I accept these will be my measurements so people can decide for themselves how much credibility to attach to them. Agreed that people should choose speakers with a flat frequency response. I try my best to advise people which speakers may suit their room best. Some speaker's bass can be tuned to their room within reason and I can provide the ability to tune the treble response to suit rooms and preferences (within reason).
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Post by macca on Jan 29, 2023 13:41:19 GMT
macca "I am sure you will be able to find outlying situations of rooms that ae over-damped. I said it is unusual not that it would never happen." I shall publish some evidence in due course, as I'd like a reasonable sample of data and rooms. People can decide for themselves what are outliers, usual and unusual. I accept these will be my measurements so people can decide for themselves how much credibility to attach to them. Agreed that people should choose speakers with a flat frequency response. I try my best to advise people which speakers may suit their room best. Some speaker's bass can be tuned to their room within reason and I can provide the ability to tune the treble response to suit rooms and preferences (within reason). Okay. In the meantime here's something tangentially relevant for general consumption Various listeners were tested in controlled conditions as to what shape of response they preferred:  Note that people dragged in off the street liked it very bassy and a bit of a lift up top for some sparkle and air. Trained listeners on the other hand preferred more natural bass tone and a pretty steep roll-off into the high frequencies. 'All Listeners' is unsurprisingly somewhere between the two. Anyway note how rolled off the FR is for trained listeners, already 2.5 dB down by 5Khz. This is why I'm suggesting that you have to go to some effort to over-damp a typical domestic room, to the extent where it would start to sound poor. If you are using a loudspeaker with a flat anechoic response, anyway. Speakers that deviate from that design strategy often have elevated mids and top so they would need more room damping to sound natural in most rooms. |
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Post by pete on Jan 29, 2023 14:32:10 GMT
macca "I am sure you will be able to find outlying situations of rooms that ae over-damped. I said it is unusual not that it would never happen." I shall publish some evidence in due course, as I'd like a reasonable sample of data and rooms. People can decide for themselves what are outliers, usual and unusual. I accept these will be my measurements so people can decide for themselves how much credibility to attach to them. Agreed that people should choose speakers with a flat frequency response. I try my best to advise people which speakers may suit their room best. Some speaker's bass can be tuned to their room within reason and I can provide the ability to tune the treble response to suit rooms and preferences (within reason). Okay. In the meantime here's something tangentially relevant for general consumption Various listeners were tested in controlled conditions as to what shape of response they preferred: Note that people dragged in off the street liked it very bassy and a bit of a lift up top for some sparkle and air. Trained listeners on the other hand preferred more natural bass tone and a pretty steep roll-off into the high frequencies. 'All Listeners' is unsurprisingly somewhere between the two. Anyway note how rolled off the FR is for trained listeners, already 2.5 dB down by 5Khz. This is why I'm suggesting that you have to go to some effort to over-damp a typical domestic room, to the extent where it would start to sound poor. If you are using a loudspeaker with a flat anechoic response, anyway. Speakers that deviate from that design strategy often have elevated mids and top so they would need more room damping to sound natural in most rooms. Interesting graph!! Am I reading correctly, a tiny sample though. 4 ‘untrained’ and 7 ‘trained’ listeners. One person could hugely skew data with this sample size. |
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Post by Arke on Jan 29, 2023 15:40:32 GMT
macca "I am sure you will be able to find outlying situations of rooms that ae over-damped. I said it is unusual not that it would never happen." I shall publish some evidence in due course, as I'd like a reasonable sample of data and rooms. People can decide for themselves what are outliers, usual and unusual. I accept these will be my measurements so people can decide for themselves how much credibility to attach to them. Agreed that people should choose speakers with a flat frequency response. I try my best to advise people which speakers may suit their room best. Some speaker's bass can be tuned to their room within reason and I can provide the ability to tune the treble response to suit rooms and preferences (within reason). Okay. In the meantime here's something tangentially relevant for general consumption Various listeners were tested in controlled conditions as to what shape of response they preferred: Note that people dragged in off the street liked it very bassy and a bit of a lift up top for some sparkle and air. Trained listeners on the other hand preferred more natural bass tone and a pretty steep roll-off into the high frequencies. 'All Listeners' is unsurprisingly somewhere between the two. Anyway note how rolled off the FR is for trained listeners, already 2.5 dB down by 5Khz. This is why I'm suggesting that you have to go to some effort to over-damp a typical domestic room, to the extent where it would start to sound poor. If you are using a loudspeaker with a flat anechoic response, anyway. Speakers that deviate from that design strategy often have elevated mids and top so they would need more room damping to sound natural in most rooms. Thanks Martin, that is very interesting and really useful to know. The sample is small, but it does chime with what I seen before. This is my current tuning at my listening position:  It is surprisingly similar to what the research suggests. I subjectively (when listening) feel that I'd like 1-2dB more treble, so will likely reduce attenuation on the tweeter slightly. The small lift at 32Hz (fundamental axial length mode) will not reduce any further as the port tuning (on the 12") is tuned here too. |
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bencat
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Amplifier Destroyer
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Post by bencat on Jan 29, 2023 15:49:50 GMT
Worst part of this is the majority never listen in controlled environments and this can make listeners edgy and eager to gain approval . Most of us listen to music to enjoy it and relax and none of these studies ever resonate with me so I feel they are not that accurate . Larger numbers would be better but would also introduce more variation often leading to false conclusions . In the end I think I will stick to the stupidity of if it sounds good to me in my system and room then it is a good choice.
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Post by Arke on Jan 29, 2023 16:01:28 GMT
Worst part of this is the majority never listen in controlled environments and this can make listeners edgy and eager to gain approval . Most of us listen to music to enjoy it and relax and none of these studies ever resonate with me so I feel they are not that accurate . Larger numbers would be better but would also introduce more variation often leading to false conclusions . In the end I think I will stick to the stupidity of if it sounds good to me in my system and room then it is a good choice. Agreed. If it sounds good and you are happy that is a big win! |
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Post by macca on Jan 29, 2023 23:01:24 GMT
. In the end I think I will stick to the stupidity of if it sounds good to me in my system and room then it is a good choice. well obviously that is the end goal, this is about how to get to that goal without years of random experimentation and spending a ton of cash. |
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bencat
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Amplifier Destroyer
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Post by bencat on Jan 30, 2023 12:32:28 GMT
. In the end I think I will stick to the stupidity of if it sounds good to me in my system and room then it is a good choice. well obviously that is the end goal, this is about how to get to that goal without years of random experimentation and spending a ton of cash. Much too late for that but perhaps others can gain knowledge that still passes me by . I have looked at measurements for years some which look to my eyes almost identical and frankly the two items sounded very different so not something I understand or have confidence in . |
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Post by savvypaul on Jan 30, 2023 18:12:29 GMT
But if 8 out of 10 cats all preferred Whiskas, did the other 2 prefer Lesley Judd? About 6 in every 5 statistics are made up... Harman Kardon researched speaker preference fairly extensively,, that was their conclusion. Since they are a mass-market vendor of speakers it was obviously important to them to get it right from a financial point of view. Surprised you are unaware of their research given you work in the industry. 1 in 5 punters is still a big market for the more...'interesting' design of speaker, so I shouldn't worry. I'm aware, but different conclusions are available. I thought you might have enjoyed the Half Man Half Biscuit reference...but some fell on stony ground. What would I be worried about? |
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Post by macca on Jan 30, 2023 18:38:42 GMT
Harman Kardon researched speaker preference fairly extensively,, that was their conclusion. Since they are a mass-market vendor of speakers it was obviously important to them to get it right from a financial point of view. Surprised you are unaware of their research given you work in the industry. 1 in 5 punters is still a big market for the more...'interesting' design of speaker, so I shouldn't worry. I'm aware, but different conclusions are available. I thought you might have enjoyed the Half Man Half Biscuit reference...but some fell on stony ground. What would I be worried about? I would have enjoyed it but combining it with accusing me of making things up sort of ruined it.  You market an unconventional loudspeaker - I was just saying that there is still a large market for such so you don't really need to worry about having to contradict the results of the research I mentioned. In terms of speakers there's a niche market for pretty much everything and anything. There's clearly not a 'one size fits all.' IMV that makes it the only really interesting component - if you're not into turntablism. Anyway did look for you at the NW show to say hello, but you must have been down that hidden corridor that I never manage to find but that always has stuff I want to hear. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jan 30, 2023 19:29:22 GMT
I'm aware, but different conclusions are available. I thought you might have enjoyed the Half Man Half Biscuit reference...but some fell on stony ground. What would I be worried about? I would have enjoyed it but combining it with accusing me of making things up sort of ruined it. You market an unconventional loudspeaker - I was just saying that there is still a large market for such so you don't really need to worry about having to contradict the results of the research I mentioned. In terms of speakers there's a niche market for pretty much everything and anything. There's clearly not a 'one size fits all.' IMV that makes it the only really interesting component - if you're not into turntablism. Anyway did look for you at the NW show to say hello, but you must have been down that hidden corridor that I never manage to find but that always has stuff I want to hear. My argument would be interpretation, not invention. I'm a little sceptical about the way that measurements are sometimes used to assert absolutist type statements. I've compared speakers with very similar FR plots, but sounding very different from each other. I don't deny that FR is one issue that can affect subjective enjoyment, but the mechanical and electrical design of the speaker can also create many other issues, such as poor transient impact or phase distortions that smother micro details. I've found that I can often put up with some variations in FR, but I struggle with limited dynamics and compromised transparency. I'm not convinced that if I prefer a particular speaker that happens to have a compromised FR (Klipsch Cornwall, I agree) to a more 'flat' speaker (KEF LS50?) that this means I automatically prefer speakers with a particular FR. I wouldn't describe the NVA Cubes as unconventional in terms of frequency response. The one time they were measured, they didn't show any notable anomalies, and I've lived with them for several years without identifying any particular peaks or troughs. They are slightly unconventional in other respects, for sure. We are back at the NW in June. We were next to Coppice Audio, on the same corridor as Audio Note. Be good to see you. |
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Post by macca on Jan 30, 2023 21:35:33 GMT
I would have enjoyed it but combining it with accusing me of making things up sort of ruined it. You market an unconventional loudspeaker - I was just saying that there is still a large market for such so you don't really need to worry about having to contradict the results of the research I mentioned. In terms of speakers there's a niche market for pretty much everything and anything. There's clearly not a 'one size fits all.' IMV that makes it the only really interesting component - if you're not into turntablism. Anyway did look for you at the NW show to say hello, but you must have been down that hidden corridor that I never manage to find but that always has stuff I want to hear. My argument would be interpretation, not invention. I'm a little sceptical about the way that measurements are sometimes used to assert absolutist type statements. I've compared speakers with very similar FR plots, but sounding very different from each other. I don't deny that FR is one issue that can affect subjective enjoyment, but the mechanical and electrical design of the speaker can also create many other issues, such as poor transient impact or phase distortions that smother micro details. I've found that I can often put up with some variations in FR, but I struggle with limited dynamics and compromised transparency. I'm not convinced that if I prefer a particular speaker that happens to have a compromised FR (Klipsch Cornwall, I agree) to a more 'flat' speaker (KEF LS50?) that this means I automatically prefer speakers with a particular FR. I wouldn't describe the NVA Cubes as unconventional in terms of frequency response. The one time they were measured, they didn't show any notable anomalies, and I've lived with them for several years without identifying any particular peaks or troughs. They are slightly unconventional in other respects, for sure. We are back at the NW in June. We were next to Coppice Audio, on the same corridor as Audio Note. Be good to see you. You're disputing a lot of things that I didn't actually say so I don't have much to argue with there.  I always seem to stumble over at least one Audionote room (one year there were two - next door to each other) so hopefully will find you this time. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jan 31, 2023 11:02:37 GMT
My argument would be interpretation, not invention. I'm a little sceptical about the way that measurements are sometimes used to assert absolutist type statements. I've compared speakers with very similar FR plots, but sounding very different from each other. I don't deny that FR is one issue that can affect subjective enjoyment, but the mechanical and electrical design of the speaker can also create many other issues, such as poor transient impact or phase distortions that smother micro details. I've found that I can often put up with some variations in FR, but I struggle with limited dynamics and compromised transparency. I'm not convinced that if I prefer a particular speaker that happens to have a compromised FR (Klipsch Cornwall, I agree) to a more 'flat' speaker (KEF LS50?) that this means I automatically prefer speakers with a particular FR. I wouldn't describe the NVA Cubes as unconventional in terms of frequency response. The one time they were measured, they didn't show any notable anomalies, and I've lived with them for several years without identifying any particular peaks or troughs. They are slightly unconventional in other respects, for sure. We are back at the NW in June. We were next to Coppice Audio, on the same corridor as Audio Note. Be good to see you. You're disputing a lot of things that I didn't actually say so I don't have much to argue with there. I always seem to stumble over at least one Audionote room (one year there were two - next door to each other) so hopefully will find you this time. Nah. I'm caveating a little of what you said, and I'm introducing alternative experiences (my own). Hopefully see you at NW. |
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