Are we all totally bonkers?

Alan - I know enough to have an idea of how much I don't know, and usually I would defer to your experience and knowledge. However what you are saying does not seem correct - or logical - to me.

here we can see noise floor modulation from the power supply being measured on the output (Chord DAC with SMPS):




cook smileys

The noise is so far below signal level there is no chance of it being audible. But it is incorrect to say it cannot be measured. There is nothing happening on the output that cannot be measured.

I have yet to come across an expert (at least one who is not also financially involved in hi-fi) who says otherwise.

Those measurements are from the output of the DAC, which is an electrical signal, it isn't music.

It doesn't actually become music until after the soundwaves reach our ears and our brains recognise the patterns as 'music'.

An electrical signal only has magnitude, frequency and phase and is completely quantifiable.

In any case all I was saying was that I see no reasonable grounds for the technical assertion that all SMPS powered devices have audible issues due to the SMPS. I am sure some do, as do some using LPSU. 

I don't dispute for a second that you and others have perceived improvements in SQ when swapping to LPSU but I don't agree that some casual listening impressions are sufficient  evidence to jump to the technical conclusion that SMPS is intrinsically bad.

Maybe they were just bad in those applications, or maybe other factors are at play?

Admin edit,

I'm not keen on this post, as it isn't really the tone of what we do here.

Apologies if I have taken the meaning of the post in a way in which it wasn't meant, but I prefer to air on the side of caution.

Oli has totally overwritten what was in that post with the Admin edit text. The post's original content is no more, banished to the outer darkness.

Yeah, same goes with this Aqvox DAC.

It was ok with the SMPS, but with the LPSU it's stellar. Really stellar.

Yep same effect when I pulled the wall warts from the FiiO Taishan DAC & CCA I use in my 2nd system and replaced them with a single Chfi 15w LPS (2x USB & a 5v dc output) (£36). The sound went from mediocre but okay to excellent, especially when the overall cost was £79 for a streaming solution that rivalled my Node2/CA DAC100 combo.
Also when I moved up the LPS ladder when I pimped the Node: Chifi LPS > Longdog ((MCRU) > SBooster > SBooster + Ultra mk2. Each time there was a very discernable improvement in SQ, more music information was revealed as the previously unheard noise floor was removed/lowered.

Interesting that you should mention Chord as the DAC with the noise floor modulation is the Chord Dave. Very expensive DAC, you'd expect them to use the finest components and leave no stone unturned in terms of design.

You can look on internet and see people saying Chord DACs sound wonderful and that the DAVE sounds very special indeed. Despite SMPS. Despite the noise floor modulation. This is the problem with drawing technical conclusions from casual listening experiences - they differ from person to person, sometimes alarmingly so!

This is why I don't like to see statements such as 'the noise floor has been lowered.' Has it really? You measured noise before and after? No? The don't make the claim.

'It sounds better' to you (or me) is a sufficient and honest statement if we are relating subjective experiences, but technical claims should be backed by measurements, null tests or controlled listening trials. Otherwise it starts to move into the area of deception. Like if I sold you a car telling you it does 0-60 in 3 seconds when really it takes 8. When you come back to me and question this, saying it doesn't seem so quick, I say that I never actually timed it, but when I drove it,  it felt like it accelerated that quickly. You'd feel deceived and want your money back. 

For my own purely subjective experience I have two DACs, one using SMPS wall wart, the other with two linear supplies. I cannot tell them apart and (coincidentally?) they measure almost identically in all parameters including noise. 

Macca I had no idea which Chord DAC that was but the ASR test on that DAC has been shown to be flawed with ASR not testing the correct areas and doing the right tests . Robin Marshal the designer explained the details and what they mean but as usual ASR declined to comment or justify what they did with someone who I suspect had better digital engineering knowledge and expierience than the ASR owner.

It is also interesting that even at that highly elevated level of SMPS design there is a known upgrade of using a very expensive Sean Jacobs LPSU as a replacement which is alleged to sound suoperior to the standard . Having said that the LPSU will cost you over half the original price of the Dave and void any warrantee so not sure how many were brave enough to try it , I know of one but not seen anyone else be that brave .

I suggest it will still be an improvement with a more humble LPSU, that one is crackers expensive.

I heard a Chord DAVE with fancy psu mod subbed into a friend's system with Mscaler. It subbed for a Chord TT2.

I wasn't very smitten by the TT2, but the upped DAVE was a wow moment. It suddenly sounded like real music.
Total DAVE cost was probably ~£16k with the added bits.

I'm not saying that it's good value, or that I'd like it in my own system. And I've no idea if the fancy psu and Mscaler add anything useful. But I'd certainly be interested in trying a DAVE based on that experience.

But I certainly dismiss macca's dismissal.

DAVE has a higher output voltage than the TT. A very small increase in level can sound like a significant increase in sound quality.

Can't remember if I've said this already but I ditched the new TT idea, they were never getting it into the shop and after my new tonearm arrived from Angus I thought to hell with the new TT, luckily the shop was good about it and money refunded.

I still haven't seen the TT on their website so perhaps it never traded in or it sold without going on the website, who knows.

Funds went on more house refurbs.