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Post by macca on Dec 17, 2022 21:51:55 GMT
It can result in group delay but has to be pretty severe to be audible, does not explain how a passive cable can fix it even if a problem is there to be fixed. Also doesn't explain why a system using bog standard 79 strand can sound fantastic despite the supposed phase issue.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 17, 2022 22:07:48 GMT
A little in the defense of Colin, Making a cable from scratch is not cheap. Especially when you are asking a company to make something specific. There is a little truth in Phase shift etc, but it's incredibly debatable as to whether it is even audible at the frequency HiFi uses. Colin isnt a rip off merchant IMO, certainly not in the category of certain other HiFi thieves out there. He is charging an audiophile type premium price for his cable, but that's his right. At least its HIS design. What do you mean by litle truth in phase shift? Certainly from a speaker XO point of view it's very important. Capacitive or inductive circuits introduce phase changes, these are different at different frequencies. Is it not an issue with cables? I didn't say "little truth" I said "there is a little truth" which is all HiFi manufacturers seem to need to start emphasising the horrors it can cause to audio. As in, yes....it's a thing, but Is it relevant to cables in the audibility band? For a simplistic explanation that I think is correct, the higher the radius of bend in a cable, the more effect it has on phase shift. However, these are usually measured in the MHZ/GHZ and are particularly impactful in RF.....where phase shift is a larger issue. "the cable itself is only part of the story. For cables exposed to flexure, there are two other causes of instability that often dominate on short timescales: (1) poor electrical contact at the center pin or outer conductor of a connector, and (2) water, either in a connector or inside the outer conductor of a coax cable. 1 ps corresponds to only 0.2 mm path length in a dielectric-filled coax cable or an optical fiber. Path length changes much larger than this have been observed (too often) to be caused by both effects at existing geodetic antennas" This is NASA's own research, which also states that flexure of cables measured in GHZ still only resulted in 1.7ps delay "More modern coax cables have much better phase stability with flexure than most of the older RG-style cables. Andrew Corporation manufactures many types of corrugated cables with very good stability. For instance, the ½-inch-diameter LDF4-50A cable exhibits a phase change of ~5° at 8 GHz when bent into a 360° loop with a 5-inch radius; the equivalent phase delay is 1.7ps. Gore manufactures cables with even better performance, with phase delay changes of 0.1-0.5 ps in loop tests with a 2.25-inch radius" My point is that I could pretty much guarantee that if you folded one of your speaker cables in half, you wouldn't hear any effect in your speakers performance vs the other. The only real way to avoid this effect (if it has an audible effect) is to only use straight cables, or ensure whatever bend you have is minimal and symmetrical for all cables. As you can probably guess, the likelihood of anyone doing this is completely unlikely..... except me. I have done this in my system where I can. Made no difference at all that I could tell. I'm also unsure about how Colin has made his cables resistant to this issue. I'm not saying he hasn't, just not sure how. Bending a cable is bending a cable. Maybe the piece between cores changes things...I don't know, but I would love to see some hard evidence of his cables outperforming something else of the same AWG etc for phase shift. I like Colin, he's a genuine innovative designer, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'd need the evidence to pay his prices. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Dec 17, 2022 22:34:07 GMT
What do you mean by litle truth in phase shift? Certainly from a speaker XO point of view it's very important. Capacitive or inductive circuits introduce phase changes, these are different at different frequencies. Is it not an issue with cables? I didn't say "little truth" I said "there is a little truth" which is all HiFi manufacturers seem to need to start emphasising the horrors it can cause to audio. As in, yes....it's a thing, but Is it relevant to cables in the audibility band? For a simplistic explanation that I think is correct, the higher the radius of bend in a cable, the more effect it has on phase shift. However, these are usually measured in the MHZ/GHZ and are particularly impactful in RF.....where phase shift is a larger issue. "the cable itself is only part of the story. For cables exposed to flexure, there are two other causes of instability that often dominate on short timescales: (1) poor electrical contact at the center pin or outer conductor of a connector, and (2) water, either in a connector or inside the outer conductor of a coax cable. 1 ps corresponds to only 0.2 mm path length in a dielectric-filled coax cable or an optical fiber. Path length changes much larger than this have been observed (too often) to be caused by both effects at existing geodetic antennas" This is NASA's own research, which also states that flexure of cables measured in GHZ still only resulted in 1.7ps delay "More modern coax cables have much better phase stability with flexure than most of the older RG-style cables. Andrew Corporation manufactures many types of corrugated cables with very good stability. For instance, the ½-inch-diameter LDF4-50A cable exhibits a phase change of ~5° at 8 GHz when bent into a 360° loop with a 5-inch radius; the equivalent phase delay is 1.7ps. Gore manufactures cables with even better performance, with phase delay changes of 0.1-0.5 ps in loop tests with a 2.25-inch radius" My point is that I could pretty much guarantee that if you folded one of your speaker cables in half, you wouldn't hear any effect in your speakers performance vs the other. The only real way to avoid this effect (if it has an audible effect) is to only use straight cables, or ensure whatever bend you have is minimal and symmetrical for all cables. As you can probably guess, the likelihood of anyone doing this is completely unlikely..... except me. I have done this in my system where I can. Made no difference at all that I could tell. I'm also unsure about how Colin has made his cables resistant to this issue. I'm not saying he hasn't, just not sure how. Bending a cable is bending a cable. Maybe the piece between cores changes things...I don't know, but I would love to see some hard evidence of his cables outperforming something else of the same AWG etc for phase shift. I like Colin, he's a genuine innovative designer, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'd need the evidence to pay his prices. Fair enough. TBH, the advanced electronics and molecular physics of cable tech is well beyond my understanding. I've not read all about his cables and tech either. Cables are obviously very different to speakers, so I'm sure phase behaviour is very different. I have a lot to learn about cables. I'll definitely rely on your guidance. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 17, 2022 22:43:15 GMT
I didn't say "little truth" I said "there is a little truth" which is all HiFi manufacturers seem to need to start emphasising the horrors it can cause to audio. As in, yes....it's a thing, but Is it relevant to cables in the audibility band? For a simplistic explanation that I think is correct, the higher the radius of bend in a cable, the more effect it has on phase shift. However, these are usually measured in the MHZ/GHZ and are particularly impactful in RF.....where phase shift is a larger issue. "the cable itself is only part of the story. For cables exposed to flexure, there are two other causes of instability that often dominate on short timescales: (1) poor electrical contact at the center pin or outer conductor of a connector, and (2) water, either in a connector or inside the outer conductor of a coax cable. 1 ps corresponds to only 0.2 mm path length in a dielectric-filled coax cable or an optical fiber. Path length changes much larger than this have been observed (too often) to be caused by both effects at existing geodetic antennas" This is NASA's own research, which also states that flexure of cables measured in GHZ still only resulted in 1.7ps delay "More modern coax cables have much better phase stability with flexure than most of the older RG-style cables. Andrew Corporation manufactures many types of corrugated cables with very good stability. For instance, the ½-inch-diameter LDF4-50A cable exhibits a phase change of ~5° at 8 GHz when bent into a 360° loop with a 5-inch radius; the equivalent phase delay is 1.7ps. Gore manufactures cables with even better performance, with phase delay changes of 0.1-0.5 ps in loop tests with a 2.25-inch radius" My point is that I could pretty much guarantee that if you folded one of your speaker cables in half, you wouldn't hear any effect in your speakers performance vs the other. The only real way to avoid this effect (if it has an audible effect) is to only use straight cables, or ensure whatever bend you have is minimal and symmetrical for all cables. As you can probably guess, the likelihood of anyone doing this is completely unlikely..... except me. I have done this in my system where I can. Made no difference at all that I could tell. I'm also unsure about how Colin has made his cables resistant to this issue. I'm not saying he hasn't, just not sure how. Bending a cable is bending a cable. Maybe the piece between cores changes things...I don't know, but I would love to see some hard evidence of his cables outperforming something else of the same AWG etc for phase shift. I like Colin, he's a genuine innovative designer, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'd need the evidence to pay his prices. Fair enough. TBH, the advanced electronics and molecular physics of cable tech is well beyond my understanding. I've not read all about his cables and tech either. Cables are obviously very different to speakers, so I'm sure phase behaviour is very different. I have a lot to learn about cables. I'll definitely rely on your guidance. I may have it completely wrong, but that has been my understanding of the situation. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 18, 2022 6:48:07 GMT
What do you mean by litle truth in phase shift? Certainly from a speaker XO point of view it's very important. Capacitive or inductive circuits introduce phase changes, these are different at different frequencies. Is it not an issue with cables? I didn't say "little truth" I said "there is a little truth" which is all HiFi manufacturers seem to need to start emphasising the horrors it can cause to audio. As in, yes....it's a thing, but Is it relevant to cables in the audibility band? For a simplistic explanation that I think is correct, the higher the radius of bend in a cable, the more effect it has on phase shift. However, these are usually measured in the MHZ/GHZ and are particularly impactful in RF.....where phase shift is a larger issue. "the cable itself is only part of the story. For cables exposed to flexure, there are two other causes of instability that often dominate on short timescales: (1) poor electrical contact at the center pin or outer conductor of a connector, and (2) water, either in a connector or inside the outer conductor of a coax cable. 1 ps corresponds to only 0.2 mm path length in a dielectric-filled coax cable or an optical fiber. Path length changes much larger than this have been observed (too often) to be caused by both effects at existing geodetic antennas" This is NASA's own research, which also states that flexure of cables measured in GHZ still only resulted in 1.7ps delay "More modern coax cables have much better phase stability with flexure than most of the older RG-style cables. Andrew Corporation manufactures many types of corrugated cables with very good stability. For instance, the ½-inch-diameter LDF4-50A cable exhibits a phase change of ~5° at 8 GHz when bent into a 360° loop with a 5-inch radius; the equivalent phase delay is 1.7ps. Gore manufactures cables with even better performance, with phase delay changes of 0.1-0.5 ps in loop tests with a 2.25-inch radius" My point is that I could pretty much guarantee that if you folded one of your speaker cables in half, you wouldn't hear any effect in your speakers performance vs the other. The only real way to avoid this effect (if it has an audible effect) is to only use straight cables, or ensure whatever bend you have is minimal and symmetrical for all cables. As you can probably guess, the likelihood of anyone doing this is completely unlikely..... except me. I have done this in my system where I can. Made no difference at all that I could tell. I'm also unsure about how Colin has made his cables resistant to this issue. I'm not saying he hasn't, just not sure how. Bending a cable is bending a cable. Maybe the piece between cores changes things...I don't know, but I would love to see some hard evidence of his cables outperforming something else of the same AWG etc for phase shift. I like Colin, he's a genuine innovative designer, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'd need the evidence to pay his prices. lol where did you copy that from oli? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 18, 2022 8:23:02 GMT
I didn't say "little truth" I said "there is a little truth" which is all HiFi manufacturers seem to need to start emphasising the horrors it can cause to audio. As in, yes....it's a thing, but Is it relevant to cables in the audibility band? For a simplistic explanation that I think is correct, the higher the radius of bend in a cable, the more effect it has on phase shift. However, these are usually measured in the MHZ/GHZ and are particularly impactful in RF.....where phase shift is a larger issue. "the cable itself is only part of the story. For cables exposed to flexure, there are two other causes of instability that often dominate on short timescales: (1) poor electrical contact at the center pin or outer conductor of a connector, and (2) water, either in a connector or inside the outer conductor of a coax cable. 1 ps corresponds to only 0.2 mm path length in a dielectric-filled coax cable or an optical fiber. Path length changes much larger than this have been observed (too often) to be caused by both effects at existing geodetic antennas" This is NASA's own research, which also states that flexure of cables measured in GHZ still only resulted in 1.7ps delay "More modern coax cables have much better phase stability with flexure than most of the older RG-style cables. Andrew Corporation manufactures many types of corrugated cables with very good stability. For instance, the ½-inch-diameter LDF4-50A cable exhibits a phase change of ~5° at 8 GHz when bent into a 360° loop with a 5-inch radius; the equivalent phase delay is 1.7ps. Gore manufactures cables with even better performance, with phase delay changes of 0.1-0.5 ps in loop tests with a 2.25-inch radius" My point is that I could pretty much guarantee that if you folded one of your speaker cables in half, you wouldn't hear any effect in your speakers performance vs the other. The only real way to avoid this effect (if it has an audible effect) is to only use straight cables, or ensure whatever bend you have is minimal and symmetrical for all cables. As you can probably guess, the likelihood of anyone doing this is completely unlikely..... except me. I have done this in my system where I can. Made no difference at all that I could tell. I'm also unsure about how Colin has made his cables resistant to this issue. I'm not saying he hasn't, just not sure how. Bending a cable is bending a cable. Maybe the piece between cores changes things...I don't know, but I would love to see some hard evidence of his cables outperforming something else of the same AWG etc for phase shift. I like Colin, he's a genuine innovative designer, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'd need the evidence to pay his prices. lol where did you copy that from oli? It's excerpts from a NASA document I found when looking into coax cables many years ago. I was looking into RG316U at the time and found this stuff about phase shift. First time I'd heard of it, so I saved it and did a bit of research into it. I've got a couple of others which all basically say the same thing, but one has got some graphs etc. Not sure why it's funny? |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 18, 2022 9:10:23 GMT
its just my sense of humour,so obviously not from you.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 18, 2022 9:55:21 GMT
its just my sense of humour,so obviously not from you.
No, not from me....which is why I said "this is NASA's own research" in the post, it's also why i used quotation marks to demonstrate they were quotes. Thanks for copying the quote into Google and finding the link. I was just about to do it 👍 |
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Post by peterthebutcher on Dec 20, 2022 15:17:12 GMT
wee update... cables arrived today, and after a few hour getting them up to room temp (as they were VERY cold). The sound is better, more bass, imaging, clarity etc BUT so they should at nearly 1K (well £900 and something) but... want to hear a couple of others, especially the EWA LS 40's. Will see how they are during the 2 week or so demo
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 20, 2022 16:31:07 GMT
wee update... cables arrived today, and after a few hour getting them up to room temp (as they were VERY cold). The sound is better, more bass, imaging, clarity etc BUT so they should at nearly 1K (well £900 and something) but... want to hear a couple of others, especially the EWA LS 40's. Will see how they are during the 2 week or so demo I have to say, that's a ridiculous price. How many meters do you need, Peter? |
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Post by peterthebutcher on Dec 21, 2022 7:21:13 GMT
wee update... cables arrived today, and after a few hour getting them up to room temp (as they were VERY cold). The sound is better, more bass, imaging, clarity etc BUT so they should at nearly 1K (well £900 and something) but... want to hear a couple of others, especially the EWA LS 40's. Will see how they are during the 2 week or so demo I have to say, that's a ridiculous price. How many meters do you need, Peter? I just need a 2 meter pair even tho could get away with 1.5, but just incase I can move speakers a few more inches apart |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 21, 2022 9:10:25 GMT
I have to say, that's a ridiculous price. How many meters do you need, Peter? I just need a 2 meter pair even tho could get away with 1.5, but just incase I can move speakers a few more inches apart Let me see what I have in the Garage before you spend anything. I am 90% sure I have some stuff of Interest that you can try. |
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Post by peterthebutcher on Dec 29, 2022 10:52:05 GMT
demo cables are going back today. They were OK, BUT not a night and day one that I got when I went from QED to blue then my Black II's
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Post by macca on Dec 29, 2022 11:27:26 GMT
You clearly not listening for the right things, here's what this bloke had to say about the TQ ultra Black II: The widening of the synth solo sequence offered a rich and deep presentation while a rhythmic beat around this area provided a deeper and more substantial effect. Adding a bit of weight here and there, the track moved along with more confidence.
On Song Within A Song, even the gently applied drum strikes sounded full and rounded with new-found weight within. The extra character from the percussion added a new sense of purpose. That is, the drum sequence seemed to mean more to the drummer and hence the the listener. Some cables can treat this part of the music too softly, so that the drummer doesn’t sound is if he really cares and is probably thinking of a pub visit right after the studio session. With the Ultra Black II cables, the sequence added a bit of force here, extra press there and so on. The drummer sounded as though he was more engaged and in the moment.
theaudiophileman.com/ultra-black-ii-review-tellurium-q/Imagine - I am probably using a speaker cable that makes the drummer sound like he does not really care! I am missing out big time. This is from the same idiot reviewer who did not understand why a DAC has a filter. How do people take this stuff seriously? It boggles the mind. |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Dec 29, 2022 12:28:36 GMT
When I had my old Linn K20 speaker cable, I always thought it sounded like the drummer had spent the afternoon in a Berni Inn, but this was the 80s, so understandable.
My current cable (Atlas Hyper 3.0) places the drummer right where I want him to be, ie not down the pub. But just occasionally he sounds like he's not happy about it. I'm wondering if maybe a change of banana plugs might cheer him up.
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Post by macca on Dec 29, 2022 12:46:30 GMT
'Song Within A Song' was recorded in 1976 so I think we should consider what the cable they used in the studio at that time did.
Or is it part of the TQ Ultra Black-Magic that any hostelry-related effects of the studio cables are rendered null and void?
The drummer would certainly have had a wider selection of pubs to go to back then. On the other hand licensing hours were much stricter, if the session ended at 1400 he'd be waiting another three hours to get a drink. And if they ran past half ten at night then he'd have to rely on the half bottle of scotch stashed in the glove compartment of his Triumph Stag.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Dec 29, 2022 12:59:41 GMT
The problem has become greater on more recent recordings. I found that the drumming would move in and out of the mix at various times. For a long time I thought the cables were to blame, turns out it was due to the smoking ban, and the drummer had to go stand in the pub doorway for a fag.
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Post by macca on Dec 29, 2022 13:05:06 GMT
The problem has become greater on more recent recordings. I found that the drumming would move in and out of the mix at various times. For a long time I thought the cables were to blame, turns out it was due to the smoking ban, and the drummer had to go stand in the pub doorway for a fag. Must be good cables though if they can show that difference. If you'd only spent more then you'd be able to tell if the smoking area had one of those heat lamps that goes on and off on a timer. |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Dec 29, 2022 13:30:27 GMT
The problem has become greater on more recent recordings. I found that the drumming would move in and out of the mix at various times. For a long time I thought the cables were to blame, turns out it was due to the smoking ban, and the drummer had to go stand in the pub doorway for a fag. Must be good cables though if they can show that difference. If you'd only spent more then you'd be able to tell if the smoking area had one of those heat lamps that goes on and off on a timer. But if the timer kicking in causes a 'pop' through the speakers that would be unacceptable to me. That's the trouble with super-expensive cables, their warts and all presentation. In some ways cheap and cheerful is better. |
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Post by macca on Dec 29, 2022 13:43:03 GMT
The ones where you can't tell if there is a drummer at all let alone what mood he's in.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Dec 29, 2022 13:49:21 GMT
The ones where you can't tell if there is a drummer at all let alone what mood he's in. Well it's what we grew up with, and it was never a problem. But then we had the drugs to fill in the gaps. Happy times  |
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Post by macca on Dec 29, 2022 13:50:49 GMT
Pretty sure you can still get drugs although they're not what they used to be either.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Dec 29, 2022 14:22:52 GMT
Pretty sure you can still get drugs although they're not what they used to be either. Bloody scientists, always trying to make stuff safer. Low fat this, sugar-free that... much better in the olden days when nobody cared. |
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Post by firebottle on Dec 29, 2022 14:39:31 GMT
...and it's the new Audio Addicts double act, Ta Da.
You thinking of going on the road?
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optical
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Post by optical on Dec 29, 2022 17:49:05 GMT
I'm up for constructive debate re cables etc, of course but I think we can leave the fun poking a bit, especially on someone's personal thread rather than a generic discussion one.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Dec 29, 2022 17:59:28 GMT
I'm up for constructive debate re cables etc, of course but I think we can leave the fun poking a bit, especially on someone's personal thread rather than a generic discussion one. My apologies - I didn't realise that's what I was doing, until I checked. |
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optical
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Post by optical on Dec 29, 2022 18:08:40 GMT
I'm up for constructive debate re cables etc, of course but I think we can leave the fun poking a bit, especially on someone's personal thread rather than a generic discussion one. My apologies - I didn't realise that's what I was doing, until I checked. No problem, thanks for acknowledging 👍 It's the internet, and sometimes context is difficult to highlight. I know everyone's only having a bit of fun and that's absolutely fine, in fact usually it's really funny and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from doing it as otherwise things can get a little boring, but the crux of the thread is about someone's actual real world experiences (subjective or not) and we don't want to invalidate that at all. |
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Post by misterc on Dec 29, 2022 18:40:08 GMT
Audio cables absolutely 100% cause group delay, irrefutably 
Yes really thery do, wait, what that bull cock, your mad, bonkers, insane you need a frontal lobe lobotomy.
BUT hold your horses here's how:-
a delay of a group of people waiting in the que as you retrive your parcels (cables) from the sorting office.
There you go a group delay caused by cables
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