Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 17:06:01 GMT
Hello Folks. I thought I’d write a short piece about choosing a speaker for your room - Room modes. I’ve always known the speaker/room is extremely important and have recently become even more aware of the importance of choosing the right speaker for your room. I realise most people know this already, but I’d like to communicate a few of my findings and experience over the years. I realise the amp/speaker interaction is extremely important too, however, this will focus more on the room.
Background:
I have recently heard the ARKE Duos in many different rooms and this has highlighted the very large effect the room has on the performance - mainly the bass and HF. This is NOT a scientific study and I realise there were many variables - it is merely an anecdotal account.
The general voice/tone/character of the speaker remained reasonably consistent between rooms. However, the perceived high frequency output varied considerably. The duos allow the adjustment of HF output by +/-2db, however, the different amounts of in-room absorption could vary the perceived HF output a lot more.
The MAIN difference across all rooms was the bass response - the low frequency extension and perceived output through the bass varied massively. The bass could be incredible in one room and particularly boomy (at certain frequencies) in another room. The boominess (or excessive bass) was always (in my experience) related to the room modes. I had realised the room modes were very important, but now I was hearing the profound effects first hand. Even these little speakers (10 litre volume) were easily exciting room modes. The worst rooms had quite a profoundly detrimental effect on the music! If your room is bad, don’t despair, there are ways to alleviate it or choose a speaker that will work better.
Room modes:
I won’t go into loads of detail as there is plenty of extremely detailed info online. In summary, the main room modes are axial, tangential and oblique. There are plenty of calculators online where you can calculate all of your main modes. I am mainly looking at the axial modes to give some basic examples. Axial are the modes associated with the Length, Width and Height of your room. The main fundamental modes are given by the formula:
Frequency = (speed of sound)/(2 x distance) = 343/(2d)
So if your room length is 4m long the main associated room mode will be 343/(2*4) = 43Hz
Every fundamental mode will have further associated harmonics. The 2nd harmonic being twice the frequency of the 1st or fundamental harmonic. The 3rd harmonic is twice the 2nd and so on. The first modes tend to be the most dominant.
You can do the same calculations for width and height too. The fundamental room modes will usually give you a boost at that frequency. It can be particularly problematic if you have a square room or a room with a length that is exactly twice the width - or any dimension an integer multiple of another.
I realise that many of you will know all this, so I won’t go into any more detail.
So, why is this useful when choosing a speaker?
It is beneficial if you can avoid exciting these modes further by choosing an inappropriate speaker. The worst cases I have heard have ALWAYS been when the port tuning coincides with one of the fundamental room modes. Oli used to have this problem with the Q500s - the port tuning coincided with the length mode and produced a particularly boomy result. My former Ekta mkIIs (port tuning around 37Hz) used to excite the length mode in my previous room also. It is generally less of an issue when your port tuning is lower than most ‘frequent’ musical notes - so generally it is slightly less problematic below 40Hz. My current music room has an axial length mode at 32Hz, which is often useful as it extends the useful bass from most speakers.
Port tuning:
From my experience the most important thing to consider is the port tuning frequency (assuming they have a vented enclosure). This has always produced big Issues in EVERY room I have encountered it in. It is not subtle and will really affect the SQ through the bass, which in turn has a detrimental effect on everything through the frequency range. How do you check? The first thing to do is to check your dominant room modes via an online calculator or quickly calculate your fundamental axial modes like this:
Length Mode Frequency = 343/(2xL) (measure in metres)
Width Mode Frequency = 343/(2xW)
Height Mode Frequency = 343/(2xH)
This is simplistic, but in most rooms the fundamental mode is most likely to coincide with a port tuning.
How do you solve it if you have the problem?
1) Change the speaker, but this isn’t always possible!
2) Try lightly stuffing the port - this will change the port tuning, but isn’t always ideal as it limits the bass extension.
3) Add a sub - I have solved this problem a few times with a sub(s). The ports can be stuffed to lift the port tuning above the dominant room mode. The sub(s) can then be tuned to fill in below. If, for example, the problem frequency is 42Hz (port tuning and room length mode) you can lift the port tuning to around 50Hz (I have done this on a friend’s speaker) and then have the sub come in under 40Hz. This would seemingly leave a suckout in the response from 40-50Hz, but the room mode usually adds a reasonable lift so actually fills it in nicely.
I realise this is only one tiny piece of the puzzle! I’m sure many people on here will disagree and I accept that. This is my experience.
Other factors in play (to name a few) are the speaker boundary interface, amp/speaker interaction and inherent frequency response of the speakers. However, I will say that the port tuning and room interaction has (in my experience) been the most dominant by far. It is definitely worth considering as many people blame it on the speaker, when in reality it is often the room/speaker interaction. For example, the ARKE duos have amazingly tight and decent bass for their size. However, in one room they simply didn’t work. The port tuning was bang on a room mode and the boom (bass lift) wasn’t great. It was fixed reasonably well with a light stuffing of the port, but was still wasn’t ideal. In the other 6 rooms the ARKE Duos sounded fantastic. BTW: it wasn’t an amp issue, as the amp was consistent in the problem room and my own (not a problem) room.
I realise this is likely to provoke some debate, and others will have different experiences. This is ONLY my anecdotal experience. I'd be very interested to hear any other views/experiences.
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Post by antonio on Nov 25, 2022 17:14:08 GMT
My head hurts
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 17:28:41 GMT
I tried to be brief 😂. That only really scratches the surface...
It is a complex area and not easy to get the speaker/room interaction right.
It is extremely important and I've heard many very expensive systems hobbled by the wrong speakers for the room/system.
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 25, 2022 17:36:44 GMT
@arke
Appreciate these kinds of posts Jason.
All the more encouraging for your coming projects I would suggest.
The importance of tailoring the speakers/ports/response to the room can be the difference between decent and fantastic, as you know more than most of course.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 17:46:05 GMT
@arke Appreciate these kinds of posts Jason. All the more encouraging for your coming projects I would suggest. The importance of tailoring the speakers/ports/response to the room can be the difference between decent and fantastic, as you know more than most of course. Thanks Chris. I realise there is tonnes of info online... Almost too much. Strangely, there is not so much about speaker port tunings and room modes. The worst problems I have heard have always been this issue.
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Post by hifinutt on Nov 25, 2022 17:55:49 GMT
arke ... one day come over and help me sort my loft room ... i spent years getting my speakers to sound good in there and then sold them !! [ for good reasons though ]
i might try some of those GIK thingies sometime
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 18:03:50 GMT
arke ... one day come over and help me sort my loft room ... i spent years getting my speakers to sound good in there and then sold them !! [ for good reasons though ] i might try some of those GIK thingies sometime Where are you based roughly? Which speakers do you have now? Is bass not quite right? Certainly happy to help if not too far, or I happen to nearby sometime. I'm not a trained acoustician, but know the basics. It is certainly a complex subject and many people spend years trying to solve the problems.
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Post by hifinutt on Nov 25, 2022 18:25:26 GMT
thanks i live in birmingham . now i did have some fabulous impulse taus which were glorious but now they are in a wonderful new room with someone else after 4 and half years
just awaiting some fairly small standmounts
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 18:45:27 GMT
thanks i live in birmingham . now i did have some fabulous impulse taus which were glorious but now they are in a wonderful new room with someone else after 4 and half years just awaiting some fairly small standmounts That's not too far from me. Which standmounts are you getting? It's always good to meet a fellow forum member and listen to some equipment and tunes.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Nov 25, 2022 18:49:35 GMT
At the risk of sounding dumb: If the ports of various speakers produce bass at different frequencies, why can't these ports be made larger/smaller/longer/shorter, whatever it takes to move that frequency down to somewhere less problematic? Is it because that would adversely affect other aspects of the speakers' performance? I have a very limited knowledge of the technical side of, well, everything, so be gentle with me
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Post by macca on Nov 25, 2022 19:00:44 GMT
At the risk of sounding dumb: If the ports of various speakers produce bass at different frequencies, why can't these ports be made larger/smaller/longer/shorter, whatever it takes to move that frequency down to somewhere less problematic? Is it because that would adversely affect other aspects of the speakers' performance? I have a very limited knowledge of the technical side of, well, everything, so be gentle with me got to be quick as the footy is starting but the port is tuned to roll in where the bass driver rolls off, and this is different depending on driver and crossover and cabinet. So the port size has to conform to all those variables or it will just sound wrong in any room.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 19:10:29 GMT
At the risk of sounding dumb: If the ports of various speakers produce bass at different frequencies, why can't these ports be made larger/smaller/longer/shorter, whatever it takes to move that frequency down to somewhere less problematic? Is it because that would adversely affect other aspects of the speakers' performance? I have a very limited knowledge of the technical side of, well, everything, so be gentle with me The port is specifically tuned to supplement the frequencies below where the bass driver is rolling off (in a given enclosure). Moving the port tuning frequency will likely have an adverse effect on the designed bass response - adding too much bass at certain frequencies or/and reducing the bass too much at certain frequencies. Stuffing the port is easy to experiment with, and *can* be useful if it helps to suppress the issues from a port/room interaction. Generally, it won't be a complete cure! It's best to select a speaker that works in your room!
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 19:11:55 GMT
At the risk of sounding dumb: If the ports of various speakers produce bass at different frequencies, why can't these ports be made larger/smaller/longer/shorter, whatever it takes to move that frequency down to somewhere less problematic? Is it because that would adversely affect other aspects of the speakers' performance? I have a very limited knowledge of the technical side of, well, everything, so be gentle with me got to be quick as the footy is starting but the port is tuned to roll in where the bass driver rolls off, and this is different depending on driver and crossover and cabinet. So the port size has to conform to all those variables or it will just sound wrong in any room. Beat me to it! Enjoy the footy!
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Post by macca on Nov 25, 2022 21:17:31 GMT
got to be quick as the footy is starting but the port is tuned to roll in where the bass driver rolls off, and this is different depending on driver and crossover and cabinet. So the port size has to conform to all those variables or it will just sound wrong in any room. Beat me to it! Enjoy the footy! It was rubbish. Room mode calculator - I put my dimensions in amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=29&w=12&h=9.5&ft=true&r60=0.6I have mode at 19hz strongest at the ends of the room, another at 39Hz also strongest against the short walls, another at 47hz strongest near the long walls...and so on. Fun to have a play with. I had so many different rooms moving house so many times I learnt all the lessons the hard way never had any problem with any speaker in this room I have now though, even big TLs.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 21:29:31 GMT
Beat me to it! Enjoy the footy! It was rubbish. Room mode calculator - I put my dimensions in amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=29&w=12&h=9.5&ft=true&r60=0.6I have mode at 19hz strongest at the ends of the room, another at 39Hz also strongest against the short walls, another at 47hz strongest near the long walls...and so on. Fun to have a play with. I had so many different rooms moving house so many times I learnt all the lessons the hard way never had any problem with any speaker in this room I have now though, even big TLs. Cheers Martin, really useful link. It's such a minefield as every room presents different issues. Great that your current room is presenting few issues. My new music room (not done yet) is twice as long as it is wide and will have a significant lift at 25Hz and 50Hz. 25Hz is perfect as it will supplement my new Vaders and allow them to easily reach into the low/mid 20Hzs. 50Hz is more of an issue! I shall have active bass below around 100Hz, so will be adjusting the bass response to work with the room modes.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Nov 25, 2022 22:17:03 GMT
It was rubbish. Room mode calculator - I put my dimensions in amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=29&w=12&h=9.5&ft=true&r60=0.6I have mode at 19hz strongest at the ends of the room, another at 39Hz also strongest against the short walls, another at 47hz strongest near the long walls...and so on. Fun to have a play with. I had so many different rooms moving house so many times I learnt all the lessons the hard way never had any problem with any speaker in this room I have now though, even big TLs. Cheers Martin, really useful link. It's such a minefield as every room presents different issues. Great that your current room is presenting few issues. My new music room (not done yet) is twice as long as it is wide and will have a significant lift at 25Hz and 50Hz. 25Hz is perfect as it will supplement my new Vaders and allow them to easily reach into the low/mid 20Hzs. 50Hz is more of an issue! I shall have active bass below around 100Hz, so will be adjusting the bass response to work with the room modes. Active bass looks like the way to go. Is that an option, even a possibility, with your Ekta speakers?
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 25, 2022 22:33:24 GMT
Cheers Martin, really useful link. It's such a minefield as every room presents different issues. Great that your current room is presenting few issues. My new music room (not done yet) is twice as long as it is wide and will have a significant lift at 25Hz and 50Hz. 25Hz is perfect as it will supplement my new Vaders and allow them to easily reach into the low/mid 20Hzs. 50Hz is more of an issue! I shall have active bass below around 100Hz, so will be adjusting the bass response to work with the room modes. Active bass looks like the way to go. Is that an option, even a possibility, with your Ekta speakers? I would ask Troels for a definite answer, however, I would say difficult to do easily on the Ekta mkIIs - certainly not something I'd tackle. The Scanspeak 18WU bass driver crosses over at 800Hz (to the midrange). I do not think (IMHO) active bass is preferable that high in the frequency response. I also think the Ekta's passive crossover on bass will not easily adapt straight to active. There are other Troels speakers that may be more appropriate for those wanting active (and tuneable) bass. Many have it integral to their design and quite a few (with crosover at 200-400Hz could be more easily adapted. EDIT: It depends a lot on the individual room too. Many rooms would work very well with a fully passive Ekta(or another speaker). It really can vary a lot from one room to another. I have spoken to a few acousticians and am pretty convinced my new room with present issues for many speakers - hence my choice of active bass at LFs. Not everyone requires it. I'd be happy to offer advice for your room if you ever look to change speakers.
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2022 8:18:48 GMT
Is there any reason the Ekta could not be fully active using a digital crossover?
Although personally I don't see the point of buying a speaker with deep bass and then having to dial it back.
In a very small or square room I would go for a small speaker, ideally a three way designed for use against a wall, and add subwoofers with DSP
Had some very small rooms when I was a student but also had some 4 way towers with twin 8 inch bass drivers, no problem at all as long as I did not play them at silly levels, but didn't need to as I was sat so close to them.
Have also found in rooms with sufficient volume that too much bass was never a problem, regardless of shape of room. Getting sufficient bass was usually the issue.
Jerry is right that no one size fits all, the whole speaker/room thing is massively complicated with many variables, just learning enough about it to realise that you know next to nothing about it will take many hours of reading and study. Common sense and experimentation is the key.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 26, 2022 9:00:19 GMT
Is there any reason the Ekta could not be fully active using a digital crossover? Although personally I don't see the point of buying a speaker with deep bass and then having to dial it back. In a very small or square room I would go for a small speaker, ideally a three way designed for use against a wall, and add subwoofers with DSP Had some very small rooms when I was a student but also had some 4 way towers with twin 8 inch bass drivers, no problem at all as long as I did not play them at silly levels, but didn't need to as I was sat so close to them. Have also found in rooms with sufficient volume that too much bass was never a problem, regardless of shape of room. Getting sufficient bass was usually the issue. Jerry is right that no one size fits all, the whole speaker/room thing is massively complicated with many variables, just learning enough about it to realise that you know next to nothing about it will take many hours of reading and study. Common sense and experimentation is the key. No reason why not on the Ektas. I just don't think it's always easy to get it just right. Troels tries to explain why here: www.troelsgravesen.dk/ECN.htm . It's not a service I am able/qualified to provide for a client. I agree completely - "the whole speaker/room thing is massively complicated with many variables". As explained, my OP was just a short summary of a few findings. If people wish to learn in more detail I suggest they investigate further themselves - it is a very large and complex subject and the maths gets very complex, very quickly! My main point is that certain room issues can be calculated and identified very easily - for example, the main axial modes. I have always found knowledge of these useful, and they have always had a measurable affect on the SQ. Also, I would advise (if at all possible) to avoid having a speaker with a port tuning coincident with a dominant room mode. In my experience, this has ALWAYS been a big issue. If someone can demonstrate otherwise I'd love to hear it.
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2022 9:08:55 GMT
Is there any reason the Ekta could not be fully active using a digital crossover? Although personally I don't see the point of buying a speaker with deep bass and then having to dial it back. In a very small or square room I would go for a small speaker, ideally a three way designed for use against a wall, and add subwoofers with DSP Had some very small rooms when I was a student but also had some 4 way towers with twin 8 inch bass drivers, no problem at all as long as I did not play them at silly levels, but didn't need to as I was sat so close to them. Have also found in rooms with sufficient volume that too much bass was never a problem, regardless of shape of room. Getting sufficient bass was usually the issue. Jerry is right that no one size fits all, the whole speaker/room thing is massively complicated with many variables, just learning enough about it to realise that you know next to nothing about it will take many hours of reading and study. Common sense and experimentation is the key. My main point is that certain room issues can be calculated and identified very easily - for example, the main axial modes. I have always found knowledge of these useful, and they have always had a measurable affect on the SQ. Also, I would advise (if at all possible) to avoid having a speaker with a port tuning coincident with a dominant room mode. In my experience, this has ALWAYS been a big issue. If someone can demonstrate otherwise I'd love to hear it. yes - don't get the impression I am disagreeing with anything you wrote in the o/p. I bought my house back when there were still loads of them going cheap but I still waited two years for one to come up that I could afford and had a decent sized listening room. That's how much I think it matters.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 26, 2022 9:18:35 GMT
My main point is that certain room issues can be calculated and identified very easily - for example, the main axial modes. I have always found knowledge of these useful, and they have always had a measurable affect on the SQ. Also, I would advise (if at all possible) to avoid having a speaker with a port tuning coincident with a dominant room mode. In my experience, this has ALWAYS been a big issue. If someone can demonstrate otherwise I'd love to hear it. yes - don't get the impression I am disagreeing with anything you wrote in the o/p. I bought my house back when there were still loads of them going cheap but I still waited two years for one to come up that I could afford and had a decent sized listening room. That's how much I think it matters. You and I are in the fortunate position to have a dedicated listening room. This is (IMO) a very important part of a good hifi system. Size isn't everything though, as some small rooms can still be very good. Oli's room isn't large, but he has now got it working very well - the absorption levels are good and there are no bad 'boom' issues. Room proportions are very important (as you know), so I'd rather have that instead of a large space. My current room isn't massive (about 15m^2), but works very well (Oli can attest to this). I have spent some time getting the (stealth) room treatments right and the dominant length mode (32Hz) is great for extending useful bass extension.
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2022 9:28:10 GMT
my room is only dedicated insomuch as I live alone and so can do whatever I please. The WAF is very low, needless to say.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 26, 2022 9:59:16 GMT
my room is only dedicated insomuch as I live alone and so can do whatever I please. The WAF is very low, needless to say. Fortunately, my wife is quite understanding of my obsession!
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2022 10:31:38 GMT
my room is only dedicated insomuch as I live alone and so can do whatever I please. The WAF is very low, needless to say. Fortunately, my wife is quite understanding of my obsession! Most wives would object to acoustic panels glued to the living room door and big rolls of loft insulation in the corners...even I can understand that. One of my brothers was seeing a girl who worked for EMI, they came round, first thing she says is 'Why have you turned your living room into a recording studio?'
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 26, 2022 10:42:25 GMT
Fortunately, my wife is quite understanding of my obsession! Most wives would object to acoustic panels glued to the living room door and big rolls of loft insulation in the corners...even I can understand that. One of my brothers was seeing a girl who worked for EMI, they came round, first thing she says is 'Why have you turned your living room into a recording studio?' Since the room is being built/renovated for music purposes I can make all acoustic treatments discrete. The wall behind the speakers will be full of shelves (floor to ceiling and wall to wall), there will be a large window in the centre and that will have large, heavy acoustic curtains. The shelving will hide bass traps in the corners (behind stealth panels). There'll be lots of acoustic panels covered with canvas prints of pretty stuff. Other walls will contain large banks of shelving. Large diffuser-style lampshades shall be used and large plants placed around the room. I shall make some skyline and/or quadratic diffusers too - these have the green light in a mid-century modern style environment. It all sounds great, but we have to endure a long and costly house renovation first! I'll probably do some in depth posts on it's development...
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Post by hifinutt on Nov 26, 2022 11:04:15 GMT
thanks i live in birmingham . now i did have some fabulous impulse taus which were glorious but now they are in a wonderful new room with someone else after 4 and half years just awaiting some fairly small standmounts That's not too far from me. Which standmounts are you getting? It's always good to meet a fellow forum member and listen to some equipment and tunes. thanks . some alchris ar6 to tide me over . it will a take a fair while to run them in . be interesting to compare with one of your standmounts .
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2022 11:05:30 GMT
Most wives would object to acoustic panels glued to the living room door and big rolls of loft insulation in the corners...even I can understand that. One of my brothers was seeing a girl who worked for EMI, they came round, first thing she says is 'Why have you turned your living room into a recording studio?' Since the room is being built/renovated for music purposes I can make all acoustic treatments discrete. The wall behind the speakers will be full of shelves (floor to ceiling and wall to wall), there will be a large window in the centre and that will have large, heavy acoustic curtains. The shelving will hide bass traps in the corners (behind stealth panels). There'll be lots of acoustic panels covered with canvas prints of pretty stuff. Other walls will contain large banks of shelving. Large diffuser-style lampshades shall be used and large plants placed around the room. I shall make some skyline and/or quadratic diffusers too - these have the green light in a mid-century modern style environment. It all sounds great, but we have to endure a long and costly house renovation first! I'll probably do some in depth posts on it's development... Look forward to seeing that in progress. Personally, I'm not that bothered about aesthetics of treatment unless it doesn't cost me any extra For rooms where WAF prevails there is still plenty that can be done without harming the aesthetics by using dedicated treatments. Doesn't have to be all GK panels and bass traps and whatnot. I despair when I see people saying 'Nothing I can do about room treatment since I have to share the space.' Then they spend 2 grand on DAC trying to get an upgrade!
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 26, 2022 11:14:25 GMT
That's not too far from me. Which standmounts are you getting? It's always good to meet a fellow forum member and listen to some equipment and tunes. thanks . some alchris ar6 to tide me over . it will a take a fair while to run them in . be interesting to compare with one of your standmounts . My little standmounts didn't change in SQ much after a few hours of run in, subjectively at least. I had a new pair and a run in pair and couldn't detect (by ear) any real difference after 2-3hours. Bigger drivers do seem to take longer. Certainly happy to bring them over for a demo at some point. Enjoy the ar6!
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Post by hifinutt on Nov 26, 2022 16:14:36 GMT
thanks
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 26, 2022 20:29:31 GMT
I just plunk speakers down where its most convenient and looks best. A bit of tweaking with position and that's it, sorted.
But then, after half a century in the hobby it's possibly now fairly intuitive to rapidly hone in on decent positioning in a regular shaped room.
I suspect most of us have a surprisingly good room acoustics algorithm in our heads from years of experience.
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