Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 24, 2022 21:14:04 GMT
Not really recorded it all... Probably about 80-100hrs at a guess! It has to be right or construction just doesn't run smoothly. Wow....that's a lot of planning Still more to do... Grilles, outriggers etc... Making a Troels style box would be pretty speedy.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 25, 2022 9:38:06 GMT
Wow....that's a lot of planning Still more to do... Grilles, outriggers etc... Making a Troels style box would be pretty speedy. Outriggers.....you need Townsend feet...or a DIY version.
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Post by stevew on Oct 26, 2022 8:41:07 GMT
Townshend bars or Podium to accommodate the weight of the Vaders is gonna be crazy expensive It’s a marketing ploy (one I used to use myself when working). Charge more for so called ‘performance improvements’ even when manufacturing costs are the same as other equipment in the range. They’ll continue to do it as long as they continue to sell, but the difference in selling price as you need to go to levels 1/2/3 etc is eye watering. ‘‘Twas ever thus.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 26, 2022 8:53:12 GMT
Townshend bars or Podium to accommodate the weight of the Vaders is gonna be crazy expensive It’s a marketing ploy (one I used to use myself when working). Charge more for so called ‘performance improvements’ even when manufacturing costs are the same as other equipment in the range. They’ll continue to do it as long as they continue to sell, but the difference in selling price as you need to go to levels 1/2/3 etc is eye watering. ‘‘Twas ever thus. Absolutely agree, but the fact they work SO well means that even if they are nearly the cost of the speaker themselves, they still make sense. Also, if you're owing 80kg commercial speakers I imagine the expectation is that you can afford bars too 🤔
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Post by antonio on Oct 26, 2022 9:11:44 GMT
If anyone is considering anything from Townshend, go direct to them, you will get a better deal or at least that used to be the case.
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Post by stevew on Oct 26, 2022 9:34:59 GMT
Townshend bars or Podium to accommodate the weight of the Vaders is gonna be crazy expensive It’s a marketing ploy (one I used to use myself when working). Charge more for so called ‘performance improvements’ even when manufacturing costs are the same as other equipment in the range. They’ll continue to do it as long as they continue to sell, but the difference in selling price as you need to go to levels 1/2/3 etc is eye watering. ‘‘Twas ever thus. Absolutely agree, but the fact they work SO well means that even if they are nearly the cost of the speaker themselves, they still make sense. Also, if you're owing 80kg commercial speakers I imagine the expectation is that you can afford bars too 🤔 Absolutely I wish there was an easy way of replicating what Townshend isolation equipment does via the diy route. I tried all sorts, but the springs in the Townshend bars are effectively ‘air damped’, which works very very well. I have Gaia’s on the Harbeth stands, but again they just do not work as well as the Townshends. Hey ho.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 26, 2022 11:59:12 GMT
Townshend bars or Podium to accommodate the weight of the Vaders is gonna be crazy expensive It’s a marketing ploy (one I used to use myself when working). Charge more for so called ‘performance improvements’ even when manufacturing costs are the same as other equipment in the range. They’ll continue to do it as long as they continue to sell, but the difference in selling price as you need to go to levels 1/2/3 etc is eye watering. ‘‘Twas ever thus. I'm definitely keen to try them one day. I'm sure they'll end up on my Vaders eventually. So many upgrades and tweaks... One step at a time, I shall get there.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 26, 2022 20:31:08 GMT
Wow, fantastic bracing and design for non parallel sides. Damn fine work Jason. That's a long port you have there, ooh er! It's even bigger than I'd expected Alan! The Vaders are gonna do BASS! 😀
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Post by stevew on Oct 26, 2022 20:40:56 GMT
Jason and the Vaderports.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 26, 2022 20:47:11 GMT
Jason and the Vaderports. Brilliant Steve 😂😂😂
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 26, 2022 21:21:09 GMT
These are gonna be monstrous, aren't they. I can't wait to see the build thread develop.
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Post by pete on Oct 26, 2022 21:22:36 GMT
Looks more like a downpipes off the guttering on my house!, Sure it sounds better though!
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optical
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Post by optical on Oct 27, 2022 7:25:36 GMT
Wow, fantastic bracing and design for non parallel sides. Damn fine work Jason. That's a long port you have there, ooh er! It's even bigger than I'd expected Alan! The Vaders are gonna do BASS! 😀 Seen a fair few of those in my youthful times . . . . didn't realise they were for bass, although they did make a few appearances at parties . . . .
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 5, 2022 16:12:47 GMT
THE BASS ENCLOSURES... Cutting has started and the bass enclosures are coming together! Looks simple, but these are the most complex parts I've ever made - compound angles galore! Lots more refinement to do and the enclosure now requires braces, top panel, 12" bass driver baffle and Hypex enclosure. This is the hole for the 12" driver... I'm getting excited now!
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Nov 5, 2022 16:21:01 GMT
That last pic is pretty impressive Jason, though nothing new. Here's last year's winner:
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Post by bencat on Nov 10, 2022 11:34:43 GMT
Just a question I know that this is a semi active design with the bass being active or at least powered . As someone that has really gravitated to active designs over the last two years making Sara 9 into two way actives and a stacked pair of KEF 103 in to a three way active I wonder if this design would be able to be made as a fully active speaker without the cabinet mounted power amps and with just drivers connected to binding posts or banana plug inputs ? Would that change the design too much from what has been intended ? Things is I really like the freedom for tweaking you get with full digital crossovers and how being active all the speakers I have heard gain a speed of not for the start and decay that just never seems to be there with a passive . If you feel this is outside the scope of this thread then I fully understand and perhaps you could PM me .
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 10, 2022 16:40:17 GMT
Just a question I know that this is a semi active design with the bass being active or at least powered . As someone that has really gravitated to active designs over the last two years making Sara 9 into two way actives and a stacked pair of KEF 103 in to a three way active I wonder if this design would be able to be made as a fully active speaker without the cabinet mounted power amps and with just drivers connected to binding posts or banana plug inputs ? Would that change the design too much from what has been intended ? Things is I really like the freedom for tweaking you get with full digital crossovers and how being active all the speakers I have heard gain a speed of not for the start and decay that just never seems to be there with a passive . If you feel this is outside the scope of this thread then I fully understand and perhaps you could PM me . Good question and something Troels gets asked a lot. This is his answer: www.troelsgravesen.dk/passive-to-active.htmIt also depends a lot on your skill level and experience. In theory it should be possible. I'd be happy to make a cabinet for people who wish to try a Troels design without a passive crossover, however, (for obvious reasons) neither I nor Troels can be responsible for poor performance. I think you'd need quite a lot of experience, knowledge and test equipment to measure and design a really good fully active setup. Passive crossover design is a dark art and is hard to do really well, I believe Active Crossover implementation is similar.
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Post by bencat on Nov 10, 2022 18:14:36 GMT
I think that this sort of comment was true about ten years ago . The advances now in digital crossovers and dsp has advanced so much that it is no longer a major problem to get very good results. One of the best things now is if you have the crossover points given to you it is simple and easy to set things and get a good result then you can make some very small or very large changes as you sit and listen to music playing and decide if bit is better or worse . Then you have the really powerful tool of room correction like DIRAC Live which does alignments and adjustments to let you hear the speaker and not the room . If I had the money I would like to try this but sadly unless the Lottery wins happens will just have to dream .
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 10, 2022 18:23:43 GMT
Agreed, it is possible to get some great results. As Troels explains, it is preferable to be able to measure and also correct for drivers issues (even those not in the pass band).
Certainly sounds like you've achieved some great results. I shall be using the 12" bass on Vaders up to around 150-200Hz and will use the DSP to correct the main Bass room issues.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2022 18:24:01 GMT
I think that this sort of comment was true about ten years ago . The advances now in digital crossovers and dsp has advanced so much that it is no longer a major problem to get very good results. One of the best things now is if you have the crossover points given to you it is simple and easy to set things and get a good result then you can make some very small or very large changes as you sit and listen to music playing and decide if bit is better or worse . Then you have the really powerful tool of room correction like DIRAC Live which does alignments and adjustments to let you hear the speaker and not the room . If I had the money I would like to try this but sadly unless the Lottery wins happens will just have to dream . Surely it depends on if you want your audio signal manipulated via a digital interface. Not for me I'm afraid, but I do see that people are liking it.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 10, 2022 18:35:08 GMT
I think that this sort of comment was true about ten years ago . The advances now in digital crossovers and dsp has advanced so much that it is no longer a major problem to get very good results. One of the best things now is if you have the crossover points given to you it is simple and easy to set things and get a good result then you can make some very small or very large changes as you sit and listen to music playing and decide if bit is better or worse . Then you have the really powerful tool of room correction like DIRAC Live which does alignments and adjustments to let you hear the speaker and not the room . If I had the money I would like to try this but sadly unless the Lottery wins happens will just have to dream . Surely it depends on if you want your audio signal manipulated via a digital interface. Not for me I'm afraid, but I do see that people are liking it. I would only be happy to manipulate my signal in the bass (say below 200Hz) area. It's back to the debate: Do the gains of sorting room issues (via. DSP) outweigh the detriment caused by additional signal processing.It's a debate where it is difficult to find a (one size fits all) conclusion. Depends on the listener, room, system, quality of DSP etc. etc. I believe actual room treatments work well, but this again takes skill and knowledge.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2022 18:36:51 GMT
Surely it depends on if you want your audio signal manipulated via a digital interface. Not for me I'm afraid, but I do see that people are liking it. I would only be happy to manipulate my signal in the bass (say below 200Hz) area. It's back to the debate: Do the gains of sorting room issues (via. DSP) outweigh the detriment caused by additional signal processing.It's a debate where it is difficult to find a (one size fits all) conclusion. Depends on the listener, room, system, quality of DSP etc. etc. I believe actual room treatments work well, but this again takes skill and knowledge. Or luck.....
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 10, 2022 18:37:38 GMT
I would only be happy to manipulate my signal in the bass (say below 200Hz) area. It's back to the debate: Do the gains of sorting room issues (via. DSP) outweigh the detriment caused by additional signal processing.It's a debate where it is difficult to find a (one size fits all) conclusion. Depends on the listener, room, system, quality of DSP etc. etc. I believe actual room treatments work well, but this again takes skill and knowledge. Or luck..... And Trial and error... Some knowledge too, in your case!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2022 18:45:32 GMT
And Trial and error... Some knowledge too, in your case! Yeah, yours lol
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Post by bencat on Nov 10, 2022 20:08:06 GMT
If your signal as mine is fully digital then it has often been manipulated many times before you get to hear it . I am very commited to digital and DSP and for my systems and my music and my ears it works . This certainly is personal and would push me to a fully active system of it was possible how that would sound and work for others is their choice. Sadly room treatments are often ugly and domestically unacceptable and I am not the only one living in my house so DSP is the more acceptable treatment .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2022 20:12:03 GMT
If your signal as mine is fully digital then it has often been manipulated many times before you get to hear it . I am very commited to digital and DSP and for my systems and my music and my ears it works . This certainly is personal and would push me to a fully active system of it was possible how that would sound and work for others is their choice. Sadly room treatments are often ugly and domestically unacceptable and I am not the only one living in my house so DSP is the more acceptable treatment . Yeah, I see that. Luckily I can do pretty much whatever I want to in the listening space. My room treatment is laughably crap but it's the way I think suits me. I use analogue sources and digital, but there still something in me trying to be a purist. What works is what works. Glad it works for you.
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Post by bencat on Nov 10, 2022 20:18:11 GMT
What is more interesting as shown at The Wam Show was how many others were impressed by it . I know it sounds good to me but when lots of others get it too then you know some part of it is right .
Just a comment Oli you are not that much of a purist you use a Mute c and enjoy what it does that is a very manipulated signal .
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 10, 2022 20:31:06 GMT
If your signal as mine is fully digital then it has often been manipulated many times before you get to hear it . I am very commited to digital and DSP and for my systems and my music and my ears it works . This certainly is personal and would push me to a fully active system of it was possible how that would sound and work for others is their choice. Sadly room treatments are often ugly and domestically unacceptable and I am not the only one living in my house so DSP is the more acceptable treatment . Sounds like you know what you're doing, so I'm sure it works well. I have often been able to hear issues with systems in the bass region. All rooms have modes, and they're not always helpful. I'm looking forward to having some control over them. I have a dedicated room, so am fortunate to be able to treat it. Saying that I mostly prefer stealth treatments - full shelves, heavy curtains, plants, deep canvases (with acoustic damping inside), diffuser (shaped) lampshades, thick rugs etc. It seems to work and there is some thought about where things are placed.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 10, 2022 20:43:16 GMT
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Post by bencat on Nov 10, 2022 20:45:59 GMT
That is nice of you to say so but frankly the tech is so easy to use that anyone can do it provided they can follow simple instructions . A calibrated microphone is essential but beyond that things are simple do what you see on the screens . The scope of your adjustments is almost limitless with any point being possible plus the type of cr and the various slopes from 12db to 48db . I would certainly never push this sort of work with those using Vinyl as just using that would make it a difficult choice digital users on the other hand have little to lose . In my systems all manipulation is done in the digital domain and remains in digital form until it exits from six analogue outs directly in to the various power amps .
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