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Post by Arke on Sept 19, 2022 19:34:33 GMT
Hello folks, An update on the Arke Duos...  They haven't disappeared, but they have been busy running in and undergoing a few tweaks. Oli and I listened to them briefly on September 6th, however, it was brief as the Ektas were Oli's reason to visit. The Arkes were not as good as the Ektas, but they shouldn't be - they're a very different speaker at a different price point. Our brief listen highlighted that A) they weren't run in properly, and B) the midrange wasn't as transparent as it should be on the Scanspeak Revelator 15W drivers. The Revelator 15ws are great drivers and I know (from listening to other speakers with these drivers) they sound very good. The Arke's midrange wasn't quite there on the 6th, so the mid/bass capacitors have had an upgrade. They've had another 50hrs on them and are starting to sound a lot more promising! Still more running in to go and they'll be ready for the big wide world! They have their first demo with a customer on Sunday and will be going to Oli's at the start of Oct. I'll be looking for some more heads to heads and benchmarking soon after. Stay tuned and I'll post more updates soon. In the meantime I'll be starting a thread on the ARKE Vaders! A menacing name for a menacing speaker.... |
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Post by Arke on Oct 20, 2022 15:43:15 GMT
The ARKE Duos have been bringing a smile to my face lately  - what great little speakers! Now Oli has the Ektas, the Duo (demos) are my main system speaker. I must confess that I do use my subwoofer too! The Duos produce incredible bass for their size, but the subwoofer adds another dimension and depth to the soundstage - once heard you can't go back! There is a detailed update here: audioaddictsforum.com/post/81450/thread. However, in summary, the Duos had a rocky start, but have now evolved into a great little standmount. Some crossover tweaks and thorough running in have made a massive difference. I am currently building a pair for a client and these are a slight variation on the demo speakers. There are two main differences: a more compact design and a simpler, but still striking cheek design. The revised design has no compromises acoustically and will be just as good as the originals!
Compact Design:Due to room location constraints, the client required a speaker with less depth. A slight tweak to the design has removed the rear crossover chamber and reduced the depth by 75mm. The internal volume is the same and the speaker retains the same constrained layer damping in the side cheeks. The rear panel will be removeable and allow easy access to the crossover for any tweaks or upgrades. Original Duos on Right. Smaller version (Duo Minis) in middle:    Crossover inside main chamber and accessible by removal of rear panel:  The bespoke design shall have flat 18mm birch ply cheeks with 45 degrees bevels at the front and top. This is much simpler than the complex, laminated wing cheeks. The wing cheeks are still an option, but cost a little more. Further details on the build to follow shortly... |
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Post by pete on Oct 20, 2022 17:15:27 GMT
Looks a great, simple solution to the problem. Fantastic to have the opportunity to have such bespoke speakers
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Post by stevew on Oct 20, 2022 17:31:30 GMT
Enjoyed listening to these speakers at Jason’s.
Superbly musical. What I’ll remember the most though is just how big they sounded.
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Post by macca on Oct 20, 2022 18:05:42 GMT
Jason - regarding 'running in' have a read of this www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-audio-speakers-break-in.11898/Of course not every driver ever made has been tested in this way; but it does seem likely from the testing that has been done that any effect of running in is minor and will usually be inaudible, and that complete run in will not take more than a couple of hours at most. I'm not aware of any tests that show a large, audible difference in driver behaviour after running in, not on any driver. If you're not totally happy with the sound of a design after a couple of hours it might be worth taking another look at it rather than put it down to the drivers needing to run in or settle in. Save you time in the long run. |
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Post by Arke on Oct 20, 2022 19:13:40 GMT
Jason - regarding 'running in' have a read of this www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-audio-speakers-break-in.11898/Of course not every driver ever made has been tested in this way; but it does seem likely from the testing that has been done that any effect of running in is minor and will usually be inaudible, and that complete run in will not take more than a couple of hours at most. I'm not aware of any tests that show a large, audible difference in driver behaviour after running in, not on any driver. If you're not totally happy with the sound of a design after a couple of hours it might be worth taking another look at it rather than put it down to the drivers needing to run in or settle in. Save you time in the long run. Hi Martin, thanks for your comments. I have seen that before. It's not what I would class as a scientific or in any way rigorous experiment. A few observations: The objective measurements were spaced out by a few hours at most. This is no where near long enough to allow any decent 'break in' of a driver surround. In addition the 1000 measurement points would be be over the entire frequency spectrum, therefore, a minimal amount of deep bass would be played through the drivers between the two sets of measurements. Drivers require many 10s of hours of deep bass to loosen the driver surrounds. There was probably a few minutes of bass between the two sets of measurements. The 'subjective' tests were conducted by one person who didn't believe in break in. They also compared two very different speakers (tiny standmounts vs large floorstanders). That is not a sufficient sample and the speakers were different. True subjective testing would need to be with a sample of maybe 100 plus subjects and done blind. The two speakers would need to be Indentical models with one brand new and one thoroughly broken in (maybe 200 plus hours). A driver's surround is stiff when new and takes time to soften. This extra compliance facilitates deeper bass and also a faster transient response. The improved transient response won't be measurable in a frequency response test (as in the linked example) The break in of the Arke Duos was one (minor) factor in the SQ improvement. I also changed various crossover components and adjusted the relative attenuation of the tweeter. I'd be eager to read any rigorous scientific papers which show break in isn't real. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2022 19:18:32 GMT
So all the measurements were taken in the first 4hours of being out of the box, and that's a complete study with cast iron results beyond reproach?
I really dislike the ASR "absolute-ism" in the way one test conjured up by Amir is suddenly the determining factor to an absolute conclusion that applies to all HiFi.
For the record, I am not convinced that the Arkes were transformed by burn in time either. I think the fact the capacitors were changed to ones of superior construction were the most influential factor. The reason for that is the observations surrounding the SQ were not the type that I'd ever heard from "out of the box" drivers, but they were synonymous with things I'd heard in capacitor changes from the many we've tried in other applications.
The change of caps coincided with an uplift in performance too....
However, ASR would call that bullshit
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Post by Arke on Oct 20, 2022 19:26:35 GMT
So all the measurements were taken in the first 4hours of being out of the box, and that's a complete study with cast iron results beyond reproach? I really dislike the ASR "absolute-ism" in the way one test conjured up by Amir is suddenly the determining factor to an absolute conclusion that applies to all HiFi. For the record, I am not convinced that the Arkes were transformed by burn in time either. I think the fact the capacitors were changed to ones of superior construction were the most influential factor. The reason for that is the observations surrounding the SQ were not the type that I'd ever heard from "out of the box" drivers, but they were synonymous with things I'd heard in capacitor changes from the many we've tried in other applications. The change of caps coincided with an uplift in performance too.... However, ASR would call that bullshit The subjective test didn't even compare the same speakers. The M16s are £750 and the Salon 2s are £23000. COMPLETELY different speakers and drivers. How could they even sound similar? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 14,644
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2022 19:29:19 GMT
So all the measurements were taken in the first 4hours of being out of the box, and that's a complete study with cast iron results beyond reproach? I really dislike the ASR "absolute-ism" in the way one test conjured up by Amir is suddenly the determining factor to an absolute conclusion that applies to all HiFi. For the record, I am not convinced that the Arkes were transformed by burn in time either. I think the fact the capacitors were changed to ones of superior construction were the most influential factor. The reason for that is the observations surrounding the SQ were not the type that I'd ever heard from "out of the box" drivers, but they were synonymous with things I'd heard in capacitor changes from the many we've tried in other applications. The change of caps coincided with an uplift in performance too.... However, ASR would call that bullshit The subjective test didn't even compare the same speakers. The M16s are £750 and the Salon 2s are £23000. COMPLETELY different speakers and drivers. How could they even sound similar? I have no idea. |
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Post by Arke on Oct 20, 2022 19:29:50 GMT
So all the measurements were taken in the first 4hours of being out of the box, and that's a complete study with cast iron results beyond reproach? I really dislike the ASR "absolute-ism" in the way one test conjured up by Amir is suddenly the determining factor to an absolute conclusion that applies to all HiFi. For the record, I am not convinced that the Arkes were transformed by burn in time either. I think the fact the capacitors were changed to ones of superior construction were the most influential factor. The reason for that is the observations surrounding the SQ were not the type that I'd ever heard from "out of the box" drivers, but they were synonymous with things I'd heard in capacitor changes from the many we've tried in other applications. The change of caps coincided with an uplift in performance too.... However, ASR would call that bullshit I agree. Break in was a tiny factor. You heard them at 50hrs (the first time) so they would've been pretty well run in anyway. |
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Post by stevew on Oct 20, 2022 19:30:43 GMT
Jason - regarding 'running in' have a read of this www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-audio-speakers-break-in.11898/Of course not every driver ever made has been tested in this way; but it does seem likely from the testing that has been done that any effect of running in is minor and will usually be inaudible, and that complete run in will not take more than a couple of hours at most. I'm not aware of any tests that show a large, audible difference in driver behaviour after running in, not on any driver. If you're not totally happy with the sound of a design after a couple of hours it might be worth taking another look at it rather than put it down to the drivers needing to run in or settle in. Save you time in the long run. I suppose the only question really is that do these measurements represent what people hear? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 14,644
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2022 19:36:37 GMT
Jason - regarding 'running in' have a read of this www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-audio-speakers-break-in.11898/Of course not every driver ever made has been tested in this way; but it does seem likely from the testing that has been done that any effect of running in is minor and will usually be inaudible, and that complete run in will not take more than a couple of hours at most. I'm not aware of any tests that show a large, audible difference in driver behaviour after running in, not on any driver. If you're not totally happy with the sound of a design after a couple of hours it might be worth taking another look at it rather than put it down to the drivers needing to run in or settle in. Save you time in the long run. I suppose the only question really is that do these measurements represent what people hear? I don't want to let Jason's thread get bogged down in measurement talk, so if a thread is required, there is a special place on AA for one to exist. Let's take it there if required. Arke I am sure that the drivers were settled by the time I heard them. |
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Post by stevew on Oct 20, 2022 19:38:45 GMT
Good call
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Post by Arke on Oct 20, 2022 19:45:53 GMT
I suppose the only question really is that do these measurements represent what people hear? I don't want to let Jason's thread get bogged down in measurement talk, so if a thread is required, there is a special place on AA for one to exist. Let's take it there if required. Arke I am sure that the drivers were settled by the time I heard them. Sounds wise. Yep, they were mostly broken-in the first time you heard. Their biggest issue that day was only being compared to the Ektas! |
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 20, 2022 20:52:26 GMT
It's one of those myths isn't it, there's some truth to it, and some extreme edge cases that are highlighted to prove a point. But generally speaking short of cloth surrounds and massive subwoofer drivers most drive units don't change any after a couple of minutes use.
Unless you believe we can hear things that we can't measure.
And that's why speaker companies, like ATC don't waste days running them in and why even new speakers can be tested against a well used reference in a QA test.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2022 21:12:21 GMT
It's one of those myths isn't it, there's some truth to it, and some extreme edge cases that are highlighted to prove a point. But generally speaking short of cloth surrounds and massive subwoofer drivers most drive units don't change any after a couple of minutes use. Unless you believe we can hear things that we can't measure. And that's why speaker companies, like ATC don't waste days running them in and why even new speakers can be tested against a well used reference in a QA test. I think had one of the test subjects seen multiple hours (in the hundreds) of use, then measured against a brand spanker, the results would be far more interesting. The fact being that the test (at best) only shows that 4 hours changed very little in regard to behaviour IMO. I'm also not entirely convinced by the test conditions either, but I don't know how to make it more robust. Those Arkes did change dramatically, but as I've said....I think the other changes were more influential. |
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Post by Arke on Oct 20, 2022 21:30:56 GMT
It's one of those myths isn't it, there's some truth to it, and some extreme edge cases that are highlighted to prove a point. But generally speaking short of cloth surrounds and massive subwoofer drivers most drive units don't change any after a couple of minutes use. Unless you believe we can hear things that we can't measure. And that's why speaker companies, like ATC don't waste days running them in and why even new speakers can be tested against a well used reference in a QA test. Like Oli said above, this is probably another thread discussion. I have said above that the main change in the Arkes SQ was due to fundamental crossover changes. I will ONLY make personal claims regarding the benefits of break in after testing 2 identical speakers (one with no break in and one fully broken in). I am eager to read any very rigorous and thorough scientific studies. However, anecdotal views and subjective opinions carry very little weight for me. |
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Post by Arke on Oct 21, 2022 17:13:26 GMT
Excuse the brevity folks, but this will be a rather rapid fire build thread... It's been a busy day in the workshop and I've spent 4 hours sharing some tunes with Ian and the Q300s & ARKE Duos - Bake off write up will follow.Panels were cut for the Duo Minis and all parts covered with 2mm silent coat and 8mm felt. Rebates were mostly cut on the table saw:  Assembly of the parts was completed to produce the main central cabinet (constrained layer damping and cheeks to follow):   |
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Post by Arke on Oct 21, 2022 17:29:07 GMT
The client requested grilles, so grille frames were made from 12mm hardwood (throughout) ply. The grille frames and front baffles were clamped together and holes were drilled on the pillar drill to ensure perfect alignment. Baffle and grille frame:  Grille frames after sanding, priming and spray painting:  Just the cloth and grille fixings required. |
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Post by Arke on Oct 21, 2022 19:15:58 GMT
The cheeks on the Minis are simply 18mm birch ply panels. These are bevelled to add interest and constrain a 2mm layer of bituminous Silent Coat damping.  The simple panels are just as effective, but save a lot of money due to simpler construction. The laminated wings looks great, but complexity sadly costs. The panels have some added drama with a gentle 10 degree taper at the rear - this adds interest and exposes the beautiful plies. I used a homemade jig to ensure a very accurate 10 degree cut to every cheek panel:  Panel cheeks are complete and bonded to the central cabinets:   |
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Post by Arke on Oct 24, 2022 19:01:35 GMT
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Post by Arke on Oct 26, 2022 19:41:38 GMT
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 14,644
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 26, 2022 19:59:15 GMT
Look absolutely splendid.
I'm thinking he'll be very happy.
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 27, 2022 15:47:30 GMT
They are a handsome speaker
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Post by antonio on Oct 27, 2022 16:05:15 GMT
They look very classy, love the fact they haven't been stained and only varnished.
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Post by Arke on Oct 27, 2022 16:16:04 GMT
They look very classy, love the fact they haven't been stained and only varnished. Thanks Dave. No where to hide with a varnished finished though! Paint or veneer can hide mistakes! |
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Post by stevew on Oct 27, 2022 19:16:12 GMT
They look very classy, love the fact they haven't been stained and only varnished. Couldn’t agree more… funny you should say that 😉 |
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Post by stevew on Oct 28, 2022 9:02:26 GMT
Isn’t it good..Norwegian wood  |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 14,644
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 28, 2022 12:28:26 GMT
Isn’t it good..Norwegian wood Is that how yours will look? I like them |
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Post by Arke on Oct 28, 2022 12:41:08 GMT
The grain directions may not be accurate in this render, but essentially yes. All birch ply varnished.
Facets on cheeks will be cut through plies at 10 degrees to give the 'Zebrano' effect.
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- what great little speakers! Now Oli has the Ektas, the Duo (demos) are my main system speaker. I must confess that I do use my subwoofer too! The Duos produce incredible bass for their size, but the subwoofer adds another dimension and depth to the soundstage - once heard you can't go back!
