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Post by Arke on Sept 10, 2022 10:58:44 GMT
macca thought I'd continue the discussion here. A few very rough visualisations in white. The midrange driver is not exactly the right shape (no exact models available), but is the correct size. White top and front (cheeks could be ply, bamboo, solid timber etc.):   All white:   Size comparison to some NS1000m:   
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Post by macca on Sept 10, 2022 12:46:16 GMT
Now I am thinking about it black baffle would be better as they would be either side of the TV, white might be a bit distracting.
I do like the spec on them. What do you think the cost would be fully built, no fancy finish just matt black? Ballpark figure ofc.
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Post by Arke on Sept 10, 2022 13:25:04 GMT
Now I am thinking about it black baffle would be better as they would be either side of the TV, white might be a bit distracting. I do like the spec on them. What do you think the cost would be fully built, no fancy finish just matt black? Ballpark figure ofc. Black would blend in better, yes. Would you go standard dome tweeter or Be dome? Be adds about £600 to the finished cost. Maybe overkill for TV speakers. You can always upgrade that later anyway. Standard MDF or Baltic Birch cabs very similar to the Troels construction? Probably well braced 18mm? Front baffle could be beefed up. The recent Faital 3WC-10s on here came in at 2400 Euros with a commissioned cabinet build. However, being UK based the kits and drivers are a bit more pricey. Also, Karl did crossover builds and final Assembly, wiring, driver fit etc... That would've saved him some cash. I'll do some proper sums, but I'd imagine similar to Karl's plus more time for crossover build, wiring and driver fit etc. It's vague but I'd reckon you'd pay around £2500—3000 total for the Jantzen kit, drivers, materials and cabinet build costs. Also, just to be clear (don't want to get in any trouble for copyright etc.). These are a Troels design and kit and not my speaker design. It is effectively outsourcing the cabinet build, which many people do on a Troel's build. |
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Post by antonio on Sept 10, 2022 13:36:30 GMT
I like the white fronts but I can see your point macca, perhaps even a grey finish.
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Post by macca on Sept 10, 2022 13:58:35 GMT
Now I am thinking about it black baffle would be better as they would be either side of the TV, white might be a bit distracting. I do like the spec on them. What do you think the cost would be fully built, no fancy finish just matt black? Ballpark figure ofc. Black would blend in better, yes. Would you go standard dome tweeter or Be dome? Be adds about £600 to the finished cost. Maybe overkill for TV speakers. You can always upgrade that later anyway. Standard MDF or Baltic Birch cabs very similar to the Troels construction? Probably well braced 18mm? Front baffle could be beefed up. The recent Faital 3WC-10s on here came in at 2400 Euros with a commissioned cabinet build. However, being UK based the kits and drivers are a bit more pricey. Also, Karl did crossover builds and final Assembly, wiring, driver fit etc... That would've saved him some cash. I'll do some proper sums, but I'd imagine similar to Karl's plus more time for crossover build, wiring and driver fit etc. It's vague but I'd reckon you'd pay around £2500—3000 total for the Jantzen kit, drivers, materials and cabinet build costs. Also, just to be clear (don't want to get in any trouble for copyright etc.). These are a Troels design and kit and not my speaker design. It is effectively outsourcing the cabinet build, which many people do on a Troel's build. The Be tweeter wouldn't be necessary as you say. Yes, I absolutely appreciate that we are talking about commissioning a build. The designs are in the public realm so no issue there. Three grand is probably too much to spend for 2nd system speakers though. It's why I have not gone for the JBL L100 Classic even though there are some good open box deals about - or were. Suspect the Troels would actually be better speakers though. Will have a ponder. |
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Post by Arke on Sept 10, 2022 14:13:34 GMT
Black would blend in better, yes. Would you go standard dome tweeter or Be dome? Be adds about £600 to the finished cost. Maybe overkill for TV speakers. You can always upgrade that later anyway. Standard MDF or Baltic Birch cabs very similar to the Troels construction? Probably well braced 18mm? Front baffle could be beefed up. The recent Faital 3WC-10s on here came in at 2400 Euros with a commissioned cabinet build. However, being UK based the kits and drivers are a bit more pricey. Also, Karl did crossover builds and final Assembly, wiring, driver fit etc... That would've saved him some cash. I'll do some proper sums, but I'd imagine similar to Karl's plus more time for crossover build, wiring and driver fit etc. It's vague but I'd reckon you'd pay around £2500—3000 total for the Jantzen kit, drivers, materials and cabinet build costs. Also, just to be clear (don't want to get in any trouble for copyright etc.). These are a Troels design and kit and not my speaker design. It is effectively outsourcing the cabinet build, which many people do on a Troel's build. The Be tweeter wouldn't be necessary as you say. Yes, I absolutely appreciate that we are talking about commissioning a build. The designs are in the public realm so no issue there. Three grand is probably too much to spend for 2nd system speakers though. It's why I have not gone for the JBL L100 Classic even though there are some good open box deals about - or were. Suspect the Troels would actually be better speakers though. Will have a ponder. Let me do some sums and give you a more accurate price. I really appreciate the custom at this early stage, so will do my best to provide good 'early bird' prices. These introductory prices will likely increase. I would hope they're better than JBLs... We'll hopefully find out one day. Yes, Troel's designs are partly in the public realm. You get the full crossover details (component values) when you buy the kit from Jantzen. The exact crossover details are Troel's IP and should not be shared or used for commercial purposes. Subsequent kits/builds should all be brought direct and not copied. I definitely don't want to step on Troel's or Jantzen's toes. The kit and speaker design is their realm. I am building cabinets for people that can't or choose not to build them. Yes, we can add design flair and customisation to the cabinets. We should stick within the key design constraints, but the style, build method and acoustic properties (mass, damping, non-parallel sides etc.) can all be enhanced if desired. |
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Post by Arke on Sept 10, 2022 15:07:32 GMT
Now I am thinking about it black baffle would be better as they would be either side of the TV, white might be a bit distracting. I do like the spec on them. What do you think the cost would be fully built, no fancy finish just matt black? Ballpark figure ofc. Dark grey - looks pretty cool     |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 10, 2022 15:24:30 GMT
Now I am thinking about it black baffle would be better as they would be either side of the TV, white might be a bit distracting. I do like the spec on them. What do you think the cost would be fully built, no fancy finish just matt black? Ballpark figure ofc. Dark grey - looks pretty cool We have a winner! Very modern |
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Post by Arke on Sept 11, 2022 7:08:57 GMT
macca I've been doing a little more thinking regarding the JBL L100 Classic vs a Troels Faital 3WC.... I am pretty confident the Troels option should be better. The more fair comparison (on bass driver and cabinet size) would be the Faital 3WC-12. However, I am confident the 3WC-10 would be a superior speaker too. JBL quote 40Hz at -6db and the Faital 3WC-10 achieves around 36Hz at -3db. Therefore the 3WC-10 will be low 30Hzs at -6db. I am reasonably sure the 3WC-10s will have a much improved transparency and resolution. Soundstaging and placement of instruments will be better. I believe midrange and high frequencies will be much more accurate and faithful. I am pretty confident the 3WC-10s will confirm how good a set of Troels will be in your main system too. I may be wrong, but from my (and many others) experience with Troels builds I am confident they punch (well) above their cost.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2022 8:20:38 GMT
Have you guys seen the builders response page on Troels website? There are some nice looking builds there. www.troelsgravesen.dk/Builder's_response.htm#FAITAL I like the retro looking ones with black/dark front baffle and wooden sides. Macca is apparently looking for something simple but the pics could give some ideas? I'll also try to take some pics of mine on the stands with grill attached. Makes them look a bit retro and are much cleaner with grills on. /Karl |
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Post by macca on Sept 11, 2022 8:27:57 GMT
macca I've been doing a little more thinking regarding the JBL L100 Classic vs a Troels Faital 3WC.... I am pretty confident the Troels option should be better. The more fair comparison (on bass driver and cabinet size) would be the Faital 3WC-12. However, I am confident the 3WC-10 would be a superior speaker too. JBL quote 40Hz at -6db and the Faital 3WC-10 achieves around 36Hz at -3db. Therefore the 3WC-10 will be low 30Hzs at -6db. I am reasonably sure the 3WC-10s will have a much improved transparency and resolution. Soundstaging and placement of instruments will be better. I believe midrange and high frequencies will be much more accurate and faithful. I am pretty confident the 3WC-10s will confirm how good a set of Troels will be in your main system too. I may be wrong, but from my (and many others) experience with Troels builds I am confident they punch (well) above their cost. I think you are probably correct that the Faital is the more accurate speaker and will certainly have greater bass extension. But - although accuracy to the recorded signal is a priority for my main system the TV system is more about indulging. The speakers I am using there now (Beovox MC120.2) are pretty accurate monitors, I have even seen a pair in a recording studio. They are phase coherent and use waveguides for the tweeter and the midrange dome, tech that was well ahead of its time in the early 1980s. Used them for a couple of years now and I fancy a change of pace. The JBL is more of a 'fun' speaker than a monitor - which is why I'm considering it for that system. |
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Post by Arke on Sept 11, 2022 8:32:48 GMT
Have you guys seen the builders response page on Troels website? There are some nice looking builds there. www.troelsgravesen.dk/Builder's_response.htm#FAITAL I like the retro looking ones with black/dark front baffle and wooden sides. Macca is apparently looking for something simple but the pics could give some ideas? I'll also try to take some pics of mine on the stands with grill attached. Makes them look a bit retro and are much cleaner with grills on. /Karl Thanks Karl. Much appreciated. I have spent many hours (no, days... no weeks!) going through Troel's website. Like you say, some lovely FAITAL builds on there - hundreds and hundreds of different builds to look through! Photos would be very welcome, thank you. I really like black centre and top and wooden sides. Macca is more bothered about the top and front, as the rest is obscured. |
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Post by Arke on Sept 11, 2022 8:35:26 GMT
macca I've been doing a little more thinking regarding the JBL L100 Classic vs a Troels Faital 3WC.... I am pretty confident the Troels option should be better. The more fair comparison (on bass driver and cabinet size) would be the Faital 3WC-12. However, I am confident the 3WC-10 would be a superior speaker too. JBL quote 40Hz at -6db and the Faital 3WC-10 achieves around 36Hz at -3db. Therefore the 3WC-10 will be low 30Hzs at -6db. I am reasonably sure the 3WC-10s will have a much improved transparency and resolution. Soundstaging and placement of instruments will be better. I believe midrange and high frequencies will be much more accurate and faithful. I am pretty confident the 3WC-10s will confirm how good a set of Troels will be in your main system too. I may be wrong, but from my (and many others) experience with Troels builds I am confident they punch (well) above their cost. I think you are probably correct that the Faital is the more accurate speaker and will certainly have greater bass extension. But - although accuracy to the recorded signal is a priority for my main system the TV system is more about indulging. The speakers I am using there now (Beovox MC120.2) are pretty accurate monitors, I have even seen a pair in a recording studio. They are phase coherent and use waveguides for the tweeter and the midrange dome, tech that was well ahead of its time in the early 1980s. Used them for a couple of years now and I fancy a change of pace. The JBL is more of a 'fun' speaker than a monitor - which is why I'm considering it for that system. Understood. I reckon you can have fun and accuracy in the 3WC-10s! I think the bass response and '3 way Classic' sound will be lots of 'fun'. |
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Post by macca on Sept 11, 2022 8:42:02 GMT
I think you are right!
I replied to your PM.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2022 9:10:29 GMT
Based on my experience the 3WC-10 is not what I would call "fun". In my system they are very neutral and play with great authority and transparency.
I do use them for TV as well and they do a splendid job. The bass is not boomy or exaggerated at all though so for punch and rumble in the low register some other speakers would probably do better.
In my opinion they don't really sound like they look if you know what I mean. This is not a negative thing at all. I much prefer neutral tuning to anything else.
/Karl
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Post by Arke on Sept 11, 2022 9:19:47 GMT
Based on my experience the 3WC-10 is not what I would call "fun". In my system they are very neutral and play with great authority and transparency. I do use them for TV as well and they do a splendid job. The bass is not boomy or exaggerated at all though so for punch and rumble in the low register some other speakers would probably do better. In my opinion they don't really sound like they look if you know what I mean. This is not a negative thing at all. I much prefer neutral tuning to anything else. /Karl Thanks for the feedback Karl. Is that with the tube amp? I think macca will need a speaker with a great grip on the bass. The speakers will flank a TV and be close to the wall behind - one speaker in a corner. I think this location will add quite a lot of room gain and the bass is likely to be pretty bold. A speaker with an overblown bass (in macca's location) will be way too much IMO. This is the location: audioaddictsforum.com/post/80248 |
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2022 13:02:23 GMT
I have actually not tried them yet with a powerful amp. I drive them with homebrew TPA3116 monoblocks at the moment and the bass got more balls than with the tube amp. Still it’s only 20 something watts per channel. I really need to try with a more powerful amp.
They are placed in our living room which is a large place with as much as 4m roof height at most. It’s a lot of air to pressurize. I do think they would sound more powerful in a smaller room with close boundaries.
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Post by Arke on Sept 11, 2022 13:15:46 GMT
That sounds like a great space. Like you say, a large space will take some pretty larger drivers to pressurise it. It's always a compromise between sound quality, aesthetics and space! Have you tried integrating a sub(s) with the 3WC-10s?
I hope to have a new music room one day... It'll be about 24m² with a 5m high ceiling at it's peak. A reasonable size, but not massive. The Ekta mkIIs are wonderful speakers, but I feel something larger (with minimum 12" bass) and more sensitive will be more optimal.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2022 17:14:58 GMT
That sounds like a great space. Like you say, a large space will take some pretty larger drivers to pressurise it. It's always a compromise between sound quality, aesthetics and space! Have you tried integrating a sub(s) with the 3WC-10s? I hope to have a new music room one day... It'll be about 24m² with a 5m high ceiling at it's peak. A reasonable size, but not massive. The Ekta mkIIs are wonderful speakers, but I feel something larger (with minimum 12" bass) and more sensitive will be more optimal. Yeah, I’d love to have even larger speakers and would have gone for the biggest Faital 15 but like you say, it’s always a compromise. The 15” version would totally dominate our living room. These are already pushing the limits of what looks sensible…They are bigger in person than what they look like in pictures. I’m lucky to have a very understanding wife. I’d already have a sub if I had the space. There’s just nowhere to put it even if it was small. A dedicated listening room is something I dream about. One day…😃 |
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Post by zleepy on Sept 19, 2022 11:27:00 GMT
There's a recent 3WC-10 addition to the builders response section on TG:s site. www.troelsgravesen.dk/Faital-3WC-10_Lars.htmIt's quite classy looking. Not sure about the stands though  . The backward tilt also goes against Troels intentions. |
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Post by Arke on Sept 19, 2022 11:53:12 GMT
There's a recent 3WC-10 addition to the builders response section on TG:s site. www.troelsgravesen.dk/Faital-3WC-10_Lars.htmIt's quite classy looking. Not sure about the stands though . The backward tilt also goes against Troels intentions. They look nicely done. The stands are quite low, so maybe the tilt is intentional to facilitate alignment with ear level? |
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Post by zleepy on Sept 19, 2022 12:11:16 GMT
Might be but then the intended time alignment doesn't work:  |
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Post by Arke on Sept 19, 2022 12:19:40 GMT
Might be but then the intended time alignment doesn't work: I thought it would. If you lower that speaker relative to the ear (maybe because on lower stands) then a tilt would give the same alignment (just angled up slightly). Or I'm just imagining it wrong. Similar to how Troels does on the Illuminator 71s (about 1/3 of way down article below) On stands with a tilt to align with ear position. www.troelsgravesen.dk/Illuminator-71.htmThe illuminator 71 aligns the Tweeter with the ear and the 3WC-10 with the Midrange. Same principle though. |
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. The backward tilt also goes against Troels intentions.