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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 23:12:42 GMT
Having a flick around the web and this popped up: stereocoffee.wixsite.com/ldrpreamp/the-ldr-kit-detailsI am a little intrigued as the premise seems to be that there is no mechanical interference on the Signal. Too good to be true? Any one have any experience with this sort of preamp?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 23:20:16 GMT
Yes. I've wanted one for some time mate. May invest in the kit. It's the only design I suspect may exceed the ability of my TVC.
Despite some detractors, I think it's a brilliant concept.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 23:29:23 GMT
Is that the LDRs that contain Cadmium and turn you into a Gollum with repeated use.?
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Post by antonio on Jul 24, 2018 4:45:13 GMT
I believe you are correct Jammy.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 24, 2018 5:11:01 GMT
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Post by macca on Jul 24, 2018 6:25:52 GMT
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Post by antonio on Jul 24, 2018 7:51:44 GMT
I read good reports of that one Macca on an American forum when researching a Job amp.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 7:54:22 GMT
Yes. I've wanted one for some time mate. May invest in the kit. It's the only design I suspect may exceed the ability of my TVC. Despite some detractors, I think it's a brilliant concept. Isn't this what's used in "The truth" preamp? I fancy a go at one of these. I'm not sure I'll plow $1100ish into the Tortuga one just yet though lol. Macca, you're still using a passive? How does the LDR compare?
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Post by dsjr on Jul 24, 2018 8:00:59 GMT
Illegal Cadmium aside, the bloody things are so non linear I gather, the surrounding electronics trying to make the effers work is so complex it's like trading one bodge (a single film pot with no active buffering) for another (unreliable drifting ldr's and shedloads of electrics around them to make them work properly). Up to you, but the source and speakers are so compromised anyway it makes me laugh when 'you lot' are chasing an impossible dream and overcomplicating an easy task - just my mileage of course...
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Post by macca on Jul 24, 2018 8:02:14 GMT
I'd have liked more time with the Tortuga to really assess it completely so not sure whether I would prefer it long term to the NVA. But it was impressive. The one I heard was built from a kit, cost about £500.
The LDR I have is a different make and cheaper. It just need some work on the volume control as at the moment it is either silent or way too loud.
We did a bake off with 2 LDR pre-amps, my NVA P90SA and Marco's Croft pre-amp a few years back, that is all on AoS somewhere.
I didn't think The Truth was an LDR?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 9:02:06 GMT
I'd have liked more time with the Tortuga to really assess it completely so not sure whether I would prefer it long term to the NVA. But it was impressive. The one I heard was built from a kit, cost about £500. The LDR I have is a different make and cheaper. It just need some work on the volume control as at the moment it is either silent or way too loud. We did a bake off with 2 LDR pre-amps, my NVA P90SA and Marco's Croft pre-amp a few years back, that is all on AoS somewhere. I didn't think The Truth was an LDR? No, you're right it isn't. I'll have a look for that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 11:04:03 GMT
Illegal Cadmium aside, the bloody things are so non linear I gather, the surrounding electronics trying to make the effers work is so complex it's like trading one bodge (a single film pot with no active buffering) for another (unreliable drifting ldr's and shedloads of electrics around them to make them work properly). Up to you, but the source and speakers are so compromised anyway it makes me laugh when 'you lot' are chasing an impossible dream and overcomplicating an easy task - just my mileage of course... Hi Dave, I went for simplicity itself, a passive pre with nothing but a potentiometer and a selector switch. It lacked a bit due to the Alps blue pot. I then borrowed a Glasshouse passive pre which had the same ethos except for dual stepped attenuators and a couple of ZFoil resistors. Much better but still not quite right. Silver wire was my first thought of fault. I don't like silver. Next came the Slagle AVC, this was the best by a long way BUT the bass Wass a bit boomy, lacked detail in the lower registers. Then I threw the Xiand Sheng went in and apart from the soundstage flattening, it was almost perfect, ridiculous actually. Loads of cheap Chinese bits and nothing special in terms of spec. I then looked for something with more quality to try and improve on what the XS did well. This led to to the DCB1 Pass design. Now built and coupled with the Khozmo stepped attenuator, it's the best pre I've heard here. I have a DCB1 "HOTROD" Board on the way and I'm going to stuff it with boutique parts to see if there is any improvement in terms of sound quality. I doubt there will be much if any. I've been to simplicity and back. Great results on the way too. The LDR is just my inquisitive nature and I like the concept. I would love to see some measurements from one and see how good/bad they are. I'll probably buy a kit just for fun when money allows.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 24, 2018 11:30:54 GMT
See, it's my view you've fallen completely into the gearitis trap. Why would a simple film pot in a box (with selector) not do it for you? What was lacking? Maybe the speakers needed re-positioning, the power amp was being revealed in all it's gory glory (you haven't 'arf had some tat at home there) or maybe the source wasn't ballsy enough? I very much doubt it's the pot itself unless there's a severe impedance mis-match. The first passives I made had 47k Log pots. My own non NVA passive has 25k log twin pots in and to me it sounds the same to me to the early ones and also current NVA pres.
Why has it 'got' to be the passive preamp? i explained why I can't use one with the Crown power amps - and they have gain controls on them already (25k log) so what I have done as reference is to feed a source straight into them, THEN slipped a preamp active or passive in between, matching the volume as carefully as possible and then seeing what the preamp did. Of my motley collection, the old Croft 4PP I had changed the sound the most (current Micro 25 series ones don't I've discovered), in my case with this thirty year old one softening and over-sweetening the pudding (the updates Glenn suggested I do helped a lot, but not completely), the AVI into 1m low capacitance cables sounded 'pushy' for want of a better word, but this disappeared with the amps several metres away.
The two best scenarios for me (with little dosh even after the croft and AVI were sold) were a lightly updated Crown IC-150 I inherited (see the Ken Rockwell reviews) and the NVA passive. sadly, the 10k Log NVA doesn't work well with the D-60's irrespective of mains earthing arrangements, but it does work with the HH pro amp I was given (VX300) and also their own of course with no hum or nasties at all. the IC-150 is amazing, but as it has no character at all, what comes out is a volume adjusted version of what goes in - can't work, it uses old op-amps and is cap coupled on input and output - inaudible to me though...
I've used shunt attenuators too and in an NVA concept, these work fine and add a tad more balls to the proceedings. I worry in other uses about the input and output impedance changing with each volume step and it seems like too many variables for me. The Crowns suffer knackered old pots now and prices are significantly rising, so not the bargains they used to be.
I can't say it better... Adding complexity for the sake of it is silly - to ME - but maybe you'd enjoy making one up, cadmium permitting. Make sure the Sh#t that's trying to get the things to work. Marco for example pimped his Croft preamp to the nones and made all manner of successful claims, yet Glenn did the same simply by adding extra supplies to a stock product made with ordinary parts.
I can't say this without sounding patronising, but you have to listen behind the 'sound' to the way the music comes across. More or less bass (NVA Phono 2 RIAA response for example - I have a tale here too but not for forum consumption), or bright or dull high frequencies are irrelevant if the music isn't being served. the SPU cartridge is really a bassy and restrained sound (not an accurate tonal balance at all - and I heard one just weeks ago - but the musical qualities are beyond dispute as you can hear right through the 'sound' to what the musicians were trying to convey. i can't explain it better, but the term 'musicality' means a lot to me and I still follow melodies and sing along - cough...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 11:55:14 GMT
See, it's my view you've fallen completely into the gearitis trap. Why would a simple film pot in a box (with selector) not do it for you? What was lacking? Maybe the speakers needed re-positioning, the power amp was being revealed in all it's gory glory (you haven't 'arf had some tat at home there) or maybe the source wasn't ballsy enough? I very much doubt it's the pot itself unless there's a severe impedance mis-match. The first passives I made had 47k Log pots. My own non NVA passive has 25k log twin pots in and to me it sounds the same to me to the early ones and also current NVA pres. Why has it 'got' to be the passive preamp? i explained why I can't use one with the Crown power amps - and they have gain controls on them already (25k log) so what I have done as reference is to feed a source straight into them, THEN slipped a preamp active or passive in between, matching the volume as carefully as possible and then seeing what the preamp did. Of my motley collection, the old Croft 4PP I had changed the sound the most (current Micro 25 series ones don't I've discovered), in my case with this thirty year old one softening and over-sweetening the pudding (the updates Glenn suggested I do helped a lot, but not completely), the AVI into 1m low capacitance cables sounded 'pushy' for want of a better word, but this disappeared with the amps several metres away. The two best scenarios for me (with little dosh even after the croft and AVI were sold) were a lightly updated Crown IC-150 I inherited (see the Ken Rockwell reviews) and the NVA passive. sadly, the 10k Log NVA doesn't work well with the D-60's irrespective of mains earthing arrangements, but it does work with the HH pro amp I was given (VX300) and also their own of course with no hum or nasties at all. the IC-150 is amazing, but as it has no character at all, what comes out is a volume adjusted version of what goes in - can't work, it uses old op-amps and is cap coupled on input and output - inaudible to me though... I've used shunt attenuators too and in an NVA concept, these work fine and add a tad more balls to the proceedings. I worry in other uses about the input and output impedance changing with each volume step and it seems like too many variables for me. The Crowns suffer knackered old pots now and prices are significantly rising, so not the bargains they used to be. I can't say it better... Adding complexity for the sake of it is silly - to ME - but maybe you'd enjoy making one up, cadmium permitting. Make sure the Sh#t that's trying to get the things to work. Marco for example pimped his Croft preamp to the nones and made all manner of successful claims, yet Glenn did the same simply by adding extra supplies to a stock product made with ordinary parts. I can't say this without sounding patronising, but you have to listen behind the 'sound' to the way the music comes across. More or less bass (NVA Phono 2 RIAA response for example - I have a tale here too but not for forum consumption), or bright or dull high frequencies are irrelevant if the music isn't being served. the SPU cartridge is really a bassy and restrained sound (not an accurate tonal balance at all - and I heard one just weeks ago - but the musical qualities are beyond dispute as you can hear right through the 'sound' to what the musicians were trying to convey. i can't explain it better, but the term 'musicality' means a lot to me and I still follow melodies and sing along - cough... You're probably not far off with the gearitis comment. If you looked at my listening space, you'd see a room that has no space for manoeuvre either. I get your point about musicality too. There are probably a multitude of factors as to why various bits haven't worked here. For one, the glass doors behind the speakers don't allow the use of rear ported speakers. I found sealed cabs to be the best solution but it's far from ideal. I spoke to CC.Poon who makes the Monarchy Audio SM-70 and asked his opinion on preamps, his response was, you don't need anything other than the Khozmo and a selector switch. Maybe you're on to something.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 24, 2018 12:51:50 GMT
Oliver, i don't know... It's just that I've travelled this road a long time ago and one of the things that stayed was that the thing one THINKS is substandard is often the best bit, just showing up the gear upstream or downstream...
Any of you could come here and I bet you'd absolutely slate the sounds I'm getting (the old small IMF's in the workroom you may accept, but definitely not the Spendors or Harbeths in their current form I'm sure). The thing is, by and large I can hear through this geriatric stuff (and any NVA amp I use) to the heart of the recording itself, the venue or reverb processing added and if the gear is getting in the way (of course ALL of it is to a degree), it's not enough to mask the recordings and production choices made.
I'm going to say this again, boutique components CANNOT EVER make a silk purse out of a Sh#t design. They might fine tune an 'almost there' design and in the case of the best ones, not do anything at all - in my opinion and experiences. Have a look at your average analogue mixing desk 'module' (I think they're still used), it's full of op-amps, basic electrolytic caps by the dozen and stock 5% or now 1% resistors almost by the hundred! How many channels on a desk are used in each recording, classical or pop/rock? if this whole boutique components transforming a stereo 'situation' ruled, the stuff we play would all sound horrible and totally un-musical, but it DOESN'T!!!
That's all. keep it simple, boring to suggest, but buy proper gear to start with (not some other forum member's unloved cast-offs) and listen and listen and listen in different rooms whenever possible. Good dealers aren't the scum of the earth trying to prise you out of thousands as some justifiably bitter people have suggested. The best ones love their music still and try their hardest to get a good sound that customers can share in...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 13:08:15 GMT
Oliver, i don't know... It's just that I've travelled this road a long time ago and one of the things that stayed was that the thing one THINKS is substandard is often the best bit, just showing up the gear upstream or downstream... Any of you could come here and I bet you'd absolutely slate the sounds I'm getting (the old small IMF's in the workroom you may accept, but definitely not the Spendors or Harbeths in their current form I'm sure). The thing is, by and large I can hear through this geriatric stuff (and any NVA amp I use) to the heart of the recording itself, the venue or reverb processing added and if the gear is getting in the way (of course ALL of it is to a degree), it's not enough to mask the recordings and production choices made. I'm going to say this again, boutique components CANNOT EVER make a silk purse out of a Sh#t design. They might fine tune an 'almost there' design and in the case of the best ones, not do anything at all - in my opinion and experiences. Have a look at your average analogue mixing desk 'module' (I think they're still used), it's full of op-amps, basic electrolytic caps by the dozen and stock 5% or now 1% resistors almost by the hundred! How many channels on a desk are used in each recording, classical or pop/rock? if this whole boutique components transforming a stereo 'situation' ruled, the stuff we play would all sound horrible and totally un-musical, but it DOESN'T!!! That's all. keep it simple, boring to suggest, but buy proper gear to start with (not some other forum member's unloved cast-offs) and listen and listen and listen in different rooms whenever possible. Good dealers aren't the scum of the earth trying to prise you out of thousands as some justifiably bitter people have suggested. The best ones love their music still and try their hardest to get a good sound that customers can share in... "Any of you could come here and I bet you'd absolutely slate the sounds I'm getting" You know what, Dave. I'd love you to visit here and run the rule over what I'm listening to. Good/bad/indifferent, whatever it is, I'd like to know what you think. Fancy it?
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Post by dsjr on Jul 24, 2018 13:58:35 GMT
'I would if I could, but I can't so I won't' - sorry... I try to share on forums, but that's as far as I can go I'm afraid, otherwise I'd have been to the bake-offs around and about...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 14:06:18 GMT
'I would if I could, but I can't so I won't' - sorry... I try to share on forums, but that's as far as I can go I'm afraid, otherwise I'd have been to the bake-offs around and about... No worries, Dave. Your contribution is always welcome.
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Post by antonio on Jul 24, 2018 14:11:03 GMT
My only direct bake-off of passive pre's was between a Tisbury and a Audio Synthesis Passion. The ASP won hand down but there was a big difference in price. I'm happy with my NVA p50 although I would like to hear if the stepped attenuator would make any difference.
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Post by macca on Jul 24, 2018 15:09:57 GMT
That's all. keep it simple, boring to suggest, but buy proper gear to start with (not some other forum member's unloved cast-offs) and listen and listen and listen in different rooms whenever possible. Good dealers aren't the scum of the earth trying to prise you out of thousands as some justifiably bitter people have suggested. The best ones love their music still and try their hardest to get a good sound that customers can share in... The thing is Dave we don't all have the money to be buying brand new at dealer prices.
We have to do it the hard way instead.
To buy the equivalent of my system new from a dealer would cost me £15k. I don't have that sort of cash to blow on a stereo and barring a lottery win, I never will. A tenth of that would be more like it but have you seen what you can buy new for £1500 nowadays? It would not suffice for me I'm afraid. I suspect Oliver is the same.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 16:34:09 GMT
Spot on Macca,
If it wasn't for the unloved cast offs from forum members or eBay, I'd be nowhere.
To buy the new version of my turntable wouldd be £20k+ (?) The used market is essential to guys like me, trying to build a system on a shoestring.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 16:42:57 GMT
Yes I totally agree, it must be ghastly being poor. Car boot sales, Pound stretcher, Aldi's............ I think Shona would die if it weren't for Marks & Spencer's.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 16:47:23 GMT
Spot on Macca, If it wasn't for the unloved cast offs from forum members or eBay, I'd be nowhere. To buy the new version of my turntable wouldd be £20k+ (?) The used market is essential to guys like me, trying to build a system on a shoestring. yep almost all mine in the last 20 years is secondhand.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 16:49:47 GMT
It's like wearing your big brothers hand me down trainers FFS.
😁
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Post by macca on Jul 24, 2018 17:26:27 GMT
It's like wearing your big brothers hand me down trainers FFS. 😁 Loads of my stuff was hand me downs as a child. My school blazer, my football boots, even my school tie. That's what you do when money is tight. Never bothered me, most of the lads in my school were in the same boat. To buy a brand new TT that would be the equal of Oliver's SP10 would cost you at least five grand if not ten. Then you need an arm and cartridge. The only reason people like me and Oliver can even be in this hobby in any serious way is because there is so much second hand kit out there chasing a small market so it is affordable. If you've got the cash, then go nuts. I won't be telling you that you are wasting your money. If money was no object I'd buy new also. (Unless it was some bit of gear no longer made that I fancied, or rated better than the new alternatives, like the SLP1200).
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Post by macca on Jul 24, 2018 17:31:48 GMT
Also almost all my furniture except the bed and a couple of cheap bookshelves is second-hand, and the the couches in the living room were free. Really expensive furniture in mint condition and just been professionally cleaned. The bloke could not find a buyer and was going to skip them.
I'm going to shell out a couple of grand just for something to sit on when I can get it for nothing? Not in this lifetime!
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Post by dsjr on Jul 24, 2018 18:05:29 GMT
My only direct bake-off of passive pre's was between a Tisbury and a Audio Synthesis Passion. The ASP won hand down but there was a big difference in price. I'm happy with my NVA p50 although I would like to hear if the stepped attenuator would make any difference. I bought a couple of Tisbury style attenuators. they're very neat and noce to use, but I'm convinced they don't 'quite' sound as good as the basic plastic film pot NVA use. I doubt i'd be able to pin it down blindfold though...
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Post by dsjr on Jul 24, 2018 18:08:08 GMT
The thing is Dave we don't all have the money to be buying brand new at dealer prices.
You think I do?
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Post by macca on Jul 24, 2018 18:13:26 GMT
No but you are suggesting that we'd be better off going to a dealers instead of buying cast offs on forums. Maybe we would. I'm just saying we don't have the cash to do that. Which is why we don't do it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 24, 2018 20:36:56 GMT
My only direct bake-off of passive pre's was between a Tisbury and a Audio Synthesis Passion. The ASP won hand down but there was a big difference in price. I'm happy with my NVA p50 although I would like to hear if the stepped attenuator would make any difference. I bought a couple of Tisbury style attenuators. they're very neat and noce to use, but I'm convinced they don't 'quite' sound as good as the basic plastic film pot NVA use. I doubt i'd be able to pin it down blindfold though... I’ve used a couple of those Omeg Eco range pots NVA use in passives I’ve built for mates. I still have one in my parts box. A couple of quid each and they are brilliant. Richard has a talent for finding cheap stuff that doesn’t sound cheap.
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