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Post by antonio on May 5, 2022 7:12:38 GMT
I've seen a pair of single driver speakers on ebay, and would be interested if anyone has any experience with Icon Audio, other than their amps.
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Post by macca on May 5, 2022 10:39:30 GMT
They do a lot of speakers I was quite surprised. iconaudio.com/loudspeakersI don't know if it was one of their own loudspeakers they were using when I had a demo, but I was deeply unimpressed by the overall sound. If I were you I'd go for this one:  |
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Post by antonio on May 5, 2022 11:06:48 GMT
£10k, if you could possibly lend me £9k from your redundancy I'll get them ordered forthwith, pay you back over the next 25yrs  |
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Post by macca on May 5, 2022 11:14:30 GMT
Ten K?! I didn't see any prices but I'd have guessed about two grand.
I could lend you £9K but the vig will be 6 points a week, I've got to eat.
I'd look for something vintage then. They only had 5 watt amps up to the 1960s so they'd pretty much perfected super-sensitive, easy load speakers by then.
I wouldn't go for a single driver and besides, don't you have some of them already?
The other option is kabuki, get some old Sansuis or Pioneers. No-one's giving them away anymore but should be some somewhere for a couple of hundred.
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optical
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Post by optical on May 5, 2022 11:39:07 GMT
Dave, bit of a left-field suggestion here but having personally heard the earlier version of your current amplifier with these exact speakers, I can testify to the synergy. They are single driver, it's a very good quality piece. If you're sticking with valve amps (and it looks like you are) they are an absolute match made in heaven. They are pretty much designed to bring the best out of valve amps (although they sounded great on the end of anything to be fair). Don't worry about the fact they are speakers from China etc etc, some are crap granted, these are not, I really enjoyed my time with them and only sold them to fund other projects. I don't really have any valve amps left but I'm still thinking of getting a pair again . . . . they really do bass too. www.hifi-amplifiers.com/en/boyuu-audio-reisong-hifi-tube-amplifier-c-88/reisong-boyuu-k8-hifi-audio-bookshelf-loudspeaker-audiophile-passive-speaker-pair-new-p-5603.html |
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Post by hifinutt on May 5, 2022 16:58:19 GMT
They do a lot of speakers I was quite surprised. iconaudio.com/loudspeakersI don't know if it was one of their own loudspeakers they were using when I had a demo, but I was deeply unimpressed by the overall sound. If I were you I'd go for this one: wow |
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Post by jandl100 on May 5, 2022 17:05:00 GMT
Single driver speakers.
Yuck.
Too much lost for too little gained.
Some folks love them, of course.
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Post by antonio on May 5, 2022 17:47:13 GMT
I'm looking for a speaker that is smooth and does not exaggerate the higher frequencies Jerry, sorry but I cannot afford a pair of MBL's for the 2nd system |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 5, 2022 17:50:33 GMT
I'm looking for a speaker that is smooth and does not exaggerate the higher frequencies Jerry, sorry but I cannot afford a pair of MBL's for the 2nd system You don't need to spend MBL money. However, you also don't need to buy absolute dross because your budget is restricted/modest. Stay patient, let's have a look around. |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 5, 2022 18:06:34 GMT
antonio Check these out Dave. The DIY market is where all the value is. I know the maker of them. I am sure you could get something simple for your budget.  
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Post by optical on May 5, 2022 18:06:52 GMT
I'm looking for a speaker that is smooth and does not exaggerate the higher frequencies Jerry, sorry but I cannot afford a pair of MBL's for the 2nd system Exactly why I suggested these, what Dave has described is precisely what they do very well. Given what little I know of Dave's listening habits and amplification, they fit the bill. Granted, single drivers are limited but most give up a lot more than these. Hifi-wise (top to bottom frequency response) they're nothing to get excited about but play some music through them (preferably via some valves) and they're a right pair of smoothies (in a good way). The bass response is also very surprising, pretty solid to 40hz or so. |
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Post by optical on May 5, 2022 18:09:40 GMT
antonio Check these out Dave. The DIY market is where all the value is. I know the maker of them. I am sure you could get something simple for your budget. Wow, if they're the same budget they look amazing |
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Post by macca on May 5, 2022 19:01:26 GMT
they look great but got to be a couple of grand?
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Post by Bigman80 on May 5, 2022 19:35:02 GMT
they look great but got to be a couple of grand? Not sure but he makes Troels Gravessen speakers for fun, so could certainly build something within the budget? Beautiful aren't they He could probably make some Tannoy cabs too.....hint hint |
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Post by antonio on May 6, 2022 3:36:05 GMT
They are beautiful speakers, but I really don't want to go over a grand, cheaper than that would be better. Optical's suggestion is certainly tempting, just wish I could get a listen to those Icon's, but they are simply too far away.
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Post by macca on May 6, 2022 7:23:31 GMT
I'm looking for a speaker that is smooth and does not exaggerate the higher frequencies Jerry, sorry but I cannot afford a pair of MBL's for the 2nd system  Got to say I never heard a single driver speaker that sounded 'smooth'. They just tend to have too much cone break-up for that. Plus brightness tends to be in the 1khz to 3Khz area, if there's a big hump in the FR which usually there is with a single driver. It's not a result of a peak at 10khz as people seem to think. Most of us won't even notice that. best single driver speaker I heard was some Lowther Acousta, once I sold the Lowther drivers and fitted some full-range Audax units. They were quite expensive drivers though. And you still needed to site the cabs in the corners to get any bass out of them. Seriously I would look for some of the big 1970s Sansuis, jam them up against a wall, they are superb with low power valves. People just don't realise, they see all the drivers and just think it will be a dog's dinner. |
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Post by optical on May 6, 2022 7:44:07 GMT
I'm looking for a speaker that is smooth and does not exaggerate the higher frequencies Jerry, sorry but I cannot afford a pair of MBL's for the 2nd system Got to say I never heard a single driver speaker that sounded 'smooth'. They just tend to have too much cone break-up for that. Plus brightness tends to be in the 1khz to 3Khz area, if there's a big hump in the FR which usually there is with a single driver. It's not a result of a peak at 10khz as people seem to think. Most of us won't even notice that. best single driver speaker I heard was some Lowther Acousta, once I sold the Lowther drivers and fitted some full-range Audax units. They were quite expensive drivers though. And you still needed to site the cabs in the corners to get any bass out of them. Seriously I would look for some of the big 1970s Sansuis, jam them up against a wall, they are superb with low power valves. People just don't realise, they see all the drivers and just think it will be a dog's dinner. I agree with what macca is saying regarding the old, large Sansui type speakers, but given I have actually heard these exact speakers pretty much with this exact amplifier, I can tell you the sound is "smooth". Lowthers are shouty, I heard a couple of pairs in very nice cabinets near where I live and they get in your ears (not in a good way), even with full valve amplification. These are not like a lot of the 'tizzy/zingy' single driver speakers, they have a very relaxed nature concentrating mostly on the mid-range (where 80%+ of musical information is to be found). There are plenty of options out there of course including the DIY route as suggested (buying ready made by another party), but getting to listen to things first can be a problem and of course listening in your own room with your equipment is even more of a challenge. |
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Post by macca on May 6, 2022 8:11:27 GMT
Got to say I never heard a single driver speaker that sounded 'smooth'. They just tend to have too much cone break-up for that. Plus brightness tends to be in the 1khz to 3Khz area, if there's a big hump in the FR which usually there is with a single driver. It's not a result of a peak at 10khz as people seem to think. Most of us won't even notice that. best single driver speaker I heard was some Lowther Acousta, once I sold the Lowther drivers and fitted some full-range Audax units. They were quite expensive drivers though. And you still needed to site the cabs in the corners to get any bass out of them. Seriously I would look for some of the big 1970s Sansuis, jam them up against a wall, they are superb with low power valves. People just don't realise, they see all the drivers and just think it will be a dog's dinner. I agree with what macca is saying regarding the old, large Sansui type speakers, but given I have actually heard these exact speakers pretty much with this exact amplifier, I can tell you the sound is "smooth". Lowthers are shouty, I heard a couple of pairs in very nice cabinets near where I live and they get in your ears (not in a good way), even with full valve amplification. These are not like a lot of the 'tizzy/zingy' single driver speakers, they have a very relaxed nature concentrating mostly on the mid-range (where 80%+ of musical information is to be found). There are plenty of options out there of course including the DIY route as suggested (buying ready made by another party), but getting to listen to things first can be a problem and of course listening in your own room with your equipment is even more of a challenge. well I can only comment on what speakers I have heard and the problems inherent in a single-driver solution. Those speakers you recommend are cheap enough to take a punt on and I don't doubt your impressions. They are very insensitive for a single driver though, 91dB. Those Audax units I had were 103dB! I wonder if they heavily dope the driver? That would make it sound smoother but you lose efficiency which you don't want when you've only got 6 watts. |
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Post by optical on May 6, 2022 8:26:24 GMT
I agree with what macca is saying regarding the old, large Sansui type speakers, but given I have actually heard these exact speakers pretty much with this exact amplifier, I can tell you the sound is "smooth". Lowthers are shouty, I heard a couple of pairs in very nice cabinets near where I live and they get in your ears (not in a good way), even with full valve amplification. These are not like a lot of the 'tizzy/zingy' single driver speakers, they have a very relaxed nature concentrating mostly on the mid-range (where 80%+ of musical information is to be found). There are plenty of options out there of course including the DIY route as suggested (buying ready made by another party), but getting to listen to things first can be a problem and of course listening in your own room with your equipment is even more of a challenge. well I can only comment on what speakers I have heard and the problems inherent in a single-driver solution. Those speakers you recommend are cheap enough to take a punt on and I don't doubt your impressions. They are very insensitive for a single driver though, 91dB. Those Audax units I had were 103dB! I wonder if they heavily dope the driver? That would make it sound smoother but you lose efficiency which you don't want when you've only got 6 watts. Yup you are correct, they are not sensitive for a single driver due to having a slightly heavier weave on the driver which certainly goes some way towards characterising their smooth nature, astute observation Martin. The specs are a bit mis-leading to be honest, they sound much MUCH louder than their 91db rating suggests. They only needed around 10 'o' clock on my EL34 amplifier (9w) and around 12 on my MP-301 mk2 (same output as this) to be more than loud enough. I actually think they go louder with the same volume input as my Loth X BS1's (rated at 94db) and before I double checked the spec I would have had them at 96-97db minimum, why that is I do not know! Given these are for a second system (I believe) and antonio doesn't like things particularly loud (or indeed with an emphasis on HF), I believe the specs are fine for perceived usage. As you say though, not stupidly expensive for what they are, they are certainly very sturdy and look nicer in the flesh than they do in the pics. |
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Post by macca on May 6, 2022 8:58:13 GMT
I'm thinking more about headroom than constant SPL.
1 watt at 90dB is very loud even ten feet back from the speaker. But if you want 20dB of headroom for dynamic peaks - and you do - you run out of your 6 watts pretty quick. Okay so it's valves and will probably soft-clip, but IME it's worth working all this stuff out first before reaching for the credit card. There's not really any need to compromise.
Position of the volume control is meaningless, it bears no relationship to how much of the amplifier power is being used.
Also perceived loudness is to some extent a function of distortion. A distorting speaker will be perceived as louder. That's why you can have a little transistor radio 'turned up too loud.'
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Post by optical on May 6, 2022 9:04:39 GMT
Position of the volume control is meaningless, it bears no relationship to how much of the amplifier power is being used. If used in reference to a qualified 94db speaker being quieter than a supposed 91db then no it is not meaningless. I make no reference to power output of amplifier other than to state its rating, just that when the amp is at the same point (on the volume control) the 'less efficient' speaker is no quieter, in fact louder. I understand your other points though and spec-wise they are not a great match, but this is real world. |
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Post by macca on May 6, 2022 9:17:13 GMT
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Post by optical on May 6, 2022 9:20:25 GMT
Blooming Christ macca . . . . they'd dismantle your face at 50yrds!  |
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Post by macca on May 6, 2022 9:25:50 GMT
Position of the volume control is meaningless, it bears no relationship to how much of the amplifier power is being used. If used in reference to a qualified 94db speaker being quieter than a supposed 91db then no it is not meaningless. I make no reference to power output of amplifier other than to state its rating, just that when the amp is at the same point (on the volume control) the 'less efficient' speaker is no quieter, in fact louder. I understand your other points though and spec-wise they are not a great match, but this is real world. That can't be true though can it? Same amp, same position on the volume control, the speaker with the higher sensitivity will put out higher SPL. It cannot be otherwise. Possibilities - the sensitivity figures are wrong and the Loth are not as sensitive as they claim they are - which is quite likely, especially if high sensitivity is their USP Or the two manufacturers are using different parameters to determine their sensitivity figure - also quite likely. or a combination of both. Audionote for example use a measurement method that gives a higher sensitivity and then exaggerate that too. |
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Post by macca on May 6, 2022 9:29:19 GMT
Blooming Christ macca . . . . they'd dismantle your face at 50yrds!  That's what you want for very low power valves though. That or something like those Icon Audio Altec clones I linked to yesterday (although ten grand for them is just stupid money). |
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Post by optical on May 6, 2022 9:36:51 GMT
If used in reference to a qualified 94db speaker being quieter than a supposed 91db then no it is not meaningless. I make no reference to power output of amplifier other than to state its rating, just that when the amp is at the same point (on the volume control) the 'less efficient' speaker is no quieter, in fact louder. I understand your other points though and spec-wise they are not a great match, but this is real world. That can't be true though can it? Same amp, same position on the volume control, the speaker with the higher sensitivity will put out higher SPL. It cannot be otherwise. Possibilities - the sensitivity figures are wrong and the Loth are not as sensitive as they claim they are - which is quite likely, especially if high sensitivity is their USP Or the two manufacturers are using different parameters to determine their sensitivity figure - also quite likely. or a combination of both. Audionote for example use a measurement method that gives a higher sensitivity and then exaggerate that too. As you say, both instances quite likely. I had them back to back in the same environment and there didn't seem to be any difference or if anything the K8's were louder than the BS1's. It's an option anyway but you're likely right in regards to them running out of headroom a bit soon with that amp anyway. I never really drove them much above average listening levels. Plenty of other options out there. |
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Post by macca on May 6, 2022 9:36:52 GMT
There's also the Wharfedale E series, you can still get the smaller ones for sensible money:
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Post by stevew on May 6, 2022 9:43:16 GMT
There's also the Wharfedale E series, you can still get the smaller ones for sensible money: Heart skipped when I saw that. My first ever speaker, E70’s. |
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Post by macca on May 6, 2022 9:45:14 GMT
yes there's a lot of options for low power amplifiers, single driver is only one of them and IMO it's the worst of them. There's no real advantage and a million drawbacks. People will say 'Oh but there's no crossover and that's good' but avoiding having a crossover is not the wonder weapon some seem to think it is. Crossovers create problems but getting rid of them entirely is a case of the cure being worse than the disease. Anyway, fun discussion. Makes me want to get some giant Sansuis and another SECA valve amp  |
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Post by antonio on May 6, 2022 10:09:54 GMT
I've just come back from listening to a pair of Snell's, don't think they are for me, busy now but will come back later, thanks for all your helpful replies.
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