Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 7, 2020 22:44:08 GMT
Which means modding it and I'm loathe to do it. Anyway do you not see my reasoning in the idea of using thinner cable deliberately with this amp? I wonder what speaker cable they had in the lab at Eindhoven back then? Absolutely, but the fact small gauge cable was used more, was down to economic, than SQ reasons I believe. I've tried a fair amount of smaller gauge stuff and it never delivered imo. |
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Post by macca on Feb 8, 2020 10:55:09 GMT
Which means modding it and I'm loathe to do it. Anyway do you not see my reasoning in the idea of using thinner cable deliberately with this amp? I wonder what speaker cable they had in the lab at Eindhoven back then? Absolutely, but the fact small gauge cable was used more, was down to economic, than SQ reasons I believe. I've tried a fair amount of smaller gauge stuff and it never delivered imo. I don't know about 'economic' reasons. Seems to me that if we are talking about high end equipment like the Black Tulip they would have used thicker gauge cable if they thought it mattered. But in 1978 no-one thought it mattered. Some people still don't think it matters, providing the gauge of the wire is sufficient. I've always gone with the principle of using as thick a gauge of wire as possible, just to be sure that nothing is being lost in transmission. But I have about ten sets of speaker cables here of all types and gauges, sometimes swapping them makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't and it seems to depend on the nature of the amp and speakers that it is connecting. When this particular Phillips amp was being designed/tested they had to have been using thin-ish speaker cable as the amp simply will not take thick cable. So the amp must have been voiced and signed off on the listening tests using thin cable. Assuming of course that it was listened to as part of the design process, which I accept that we do not know. However if you consider that this was Philips attempt to take on the Japanese high end then I'd like to think they did listen before signing off. But I accept that this is just speculation. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 8, 2020 11:06:31 GMT
Absolutely, but the fact small gauge cable was used more, was down to economic, than SQ reasons I believe. I've tried a fair amount of smaller gauge stuff and it never delivered imo. I don't know about 'economic' reasons. Seems to me that if we are talking about high end equipment like the Black Tulip they would have used thicker gauge cable if they thought it mattered. But in 1978 no-one thought it mattered. Some people still don't think it matters, providing the gauge of the wire is sufficient. I've always gone with the principle of using as thick a gauge of wire as possible, just to be sure that nothing is being lost in transmission. But I have about ten sets of speaker cables here of all types and gauges, sometimes swapping them makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't and it seems to depend on the nature of the amp and speakers that it is connecting. When this particular Phillips amp was being designed/tested they had to have been using thin-ish speaker cable as the amp simply will not take thick cable. So the amp must have been voiced and signed off on the listening tests using thin cable. Assuming of course that it was listened to as part of the design process, which I accept that we do not know. However if you consider that this was Philips attempt to take on the Japanese high end then I'd like to think they did listen before signing off. But I accept that this is just speculation. Yup, fair point |
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Post by macca on Feb 9, 2020 10:14:16 GMT
A very generous person is sending me some - ahem - 'period correct' speaker cable so will see what the story is when that arrives.
In the meantime later today I am going to try the XTZ pre-amp with the Krell KSA100 Mk2 as I've not had a go with that combination yet.
Have sent my Denon PMA250 UKSE and a Tascam pro cd player off to be fixed, I think pretty simple faults on both so will be interesting to get them back and try them out. The Tascam has an orange LED display, looks very cool. The Denon was a revelation when I first had one back in the early 1990s, will it still stand up today?
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 9, 2020 10:25:49 GMT
I bought a Denon PMA250 UKSE after a visit to a quite well known ex-Wammer and he was using it in preference to his beloved multi-£k valve jobbie. It sounds better, he said, with an apologetic smile. Ah, said, I, not seen this mentioned on the forum. He smiled.
Very good, ballsy and high rez. But lacking a bit in sophistication, just a leetle bit too feisty for me and a bit lean.
Stupidly good for the price though - and great for some types of music. More rock than classical imo.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 9, 2020 11:11:30 GMT
The 250SE was gutless in the real world when we sold them twenty odd years ago, the 350SE well worth the extra cost I remember, but by then, we had no difficulty selling up to NAD, Arcam and Rotel, so the Denons sat on display most of the time. Their 800 series CD player was usually preferred to the basic 600 series one for much the same reasons and I can vouch for the period 1015 Cd player as being very good indeed, if lightweight and basic.
Macca, 'period' speaker cable in the late 70's was RS 50 strand (2.5mm) or 56 strand (4mm?) and if the speaker connectors were old fashioned nippon type, we trimmed the excess on and tinned the ends to prevent fraying. 4mm plugs were increasingly in use at the speaker ends routinely (2/5mm) or 56 (4mm?) strands by that time. We simply trimmed off surplus strands and tinned the ends to further prevent fraying. 4mm plugs were routinely used at the speaker ends even if amp makers were slower to catch up.
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Post by macca on Feb 9, 2020 11:13:38 GMT
'A bit lean' is how I recall it too, but I also recall the rest of its attributes more than making up for that.
I had a mark 2 version as well and that was nothing like as good.
Been offered an original NAD 3020, apparently the owner, who is a friend of a friend, is asking 'thirty quid or an eighth of weed' for it, should I go for it? Will have to take the pay by cash option ofc...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 9, 2020 11:20:52 GMT
'A bit lean' is how I recall it too, but I also recall the rest of its attributes more than making up for that. I had a mark 2 version as well and that was nothing like as good. Been offered an original NAD 3020, apparently the owner, who is a friend of a friend, is asking 'thirty quid or an eighth of weed' for it, should I go for it? Will have to take the pay by cash option ofc... Yes, get it. I love that old NAD gear. Seriously underrated |
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 9, 2020 11:31:28 GMT
Old NAD. Hmm, nah - very coloured, in a rose-tinted overly-warm and tubby sort of way. Opposite to the Denon sound in a lot of ways. Quite solid dynamically, though.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 9, 2020 11:59:33 GMT
Old NAD. Hmm, nah - very coloured, in a rose-tinted overly-warm and tubby sort of way. Opposite to the Denon sound in a lot of ways. Quite solid dynamically, though. Oh yes, very tinted but really enjoyable. And for £30!! Could easily double your money on it due to its vintage legacy m, which does exist......on Ebay at least |
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 9, 2020 12:17:37 GMT
Well, back in the day, most speakers were a lot more coloured than they are now - so maybe NAD colouration plus speaker colouration gave a semi-decent sound if you were lucky.
But use old NAD with modern more neutral speakers and it's fairly awful imo.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 9, 2020 13:16:06 GMT
Well, back in the day, most speakers were a lot more coloured than they are now - so maybe NAD colouration plus speaker colouration gave a semi-decent sound if you were lucky. But use old NAD with modern more neutral speakers and it's fairly awful imo. Hmmm, I may have to try that out |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 9, 2020 13:34:05 GMT
Well, back in the day, most speakers were a lot more coloured than they are now - so maybe NAD colouration plus speaker colouration gave a semi-decent sound if you were lucky. But use old NAD with modern more neutral speakers and it's fairly awful imo. Now which particular NAD would that be then? old 3020 which went through several internal revisions in its illustrious life., 3120 which sounded different in the bass (punchy rather than warm), or the unrelated weak toned 3225, or the far superior 302 in full sized box and the series developed from it that came later on? I think you never perhaps went low enough on brand new circa 2000 lower cost speakers. Some of them were and still are quite good and more than good enough to reproduce things further back. I was there and demmed the stuff sir. Even forty years ago, Mission 700's could sound great and surviving ones (including those we replaced drivers on when the foam surrounds crumbled) again, were clear enough and even better than HB1's I remember. Coda 7's properly sited could be surprisingly good despite their construction.
Oh never mind. Doesn't matter really does it, as all the cheaper old stuff now will be in various stages of being shagged out and on its way to the recycling centre I expect... I bet a pair of LSR305Pmk2's for under three hundred notes would probably annihilate it all anyway, but again I can't prove it!
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 9, 2020 13:37:45 GMT
Mission 700 - oh my gawd - strip paint at 50 metres!  |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 9, 2020 13:46:54 GMT
No, just a slight midrange lift and the highs were just fine, even with CD - this view also based on using them at home briefly (on my way to higher things at the time). 761i's and 780's though.......
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 9, 2020 14:03:38 GMT
We hear things VERY differently, Dave. I recall waiting my turn in KJ Leisuresound, very many moons ago, the punter in front of me interested in a pair of standmounts. Sales guy suggesting Mission 700 ..."You aren't a classical listener?". No, assured the punter. "Ah, good, classical buffs tend to find them too bright". Turns on music .... screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech .... lovely says the punter.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 16:35:31 GMT
It's the OC9 syndrome.
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Post by macca on Feb 15, 2020 11:48:29 GMT
Two experiments to try today - well three actually
1) Try new incredibly thin speaker cable sent to me by Johnjo from AoS with the Phillips Black Tulip amp
2) Try XTZ pre-amp with Krell KSA100 Mk2 using Spotfire speaker cable
3) Try new incredibly thin speaker cable with Krell KSA100 mk2 and try both the XTZ and DCB1 pre-amps with that combination.
Might have to go out in a bit so not sure I'll get them all done today.
So onto 1) - this is what John says about the speaker cable:
I reckon they’d (Philips back in 1979) have been using thin tinned copper. It gives a meaty, natural sound. Lower damping factor than thick cables due to slightly increased resistance and tonally fuller than OFC in my experience if possibly at the loss of some of the hifiy-ness, hyper detail type sound.
Yes it is really thin. Bell-wire thin. You could almost use it as a tonearm cable. Hooked it up, put on Neil Young with Crazy Horse - 'Ragged Glory' as that was already sat in the player from last time. Like most of his outings with Crazy Horse it's a bit of a rough and ready production, real live feel to it. Recorded in his barn IIRC.
Well there's no loss of the 'hify-ness hyper detail sound' - good job because I like that! First impressions are it is better than the two previous cables I have tried, no apparent loss of body plus it sounds nice and crisp and cymbals sound like cymbals and not 'shush-shush' sounds. Every detail of the mix is laid out. I'm struggling to fault it so far but you can't base everything on just listening to one recording.
I was worried that there would be no bass with such thin cable but not the case. Got to take into account that I am now used to Krell and their nonsense level grip and weight in the bass, the Black Tulip doesn't have that level of control regardless of the cables used. No slight on the Phillips, not many amplifiers match Krell for that.
More later.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 15, 2020 12:50:50 GMT
Two experiments to try today - well three actually 1) Try new incredibly thin speaker cable sent to me by Johnjo from AoS with the Phillips Black Tulip amp 2) Try XTZ pre-amp with Krell KSA100 Mk2 using Spotfire speaker cable 3) Try new incredibly thin speaker cable with Krell KSA100 mk2 and try both the XTZ and DCB1 pre-amps with that combination. Might have to go out in a bit so not sure I'll get them all done today. So onto 1) - this is what John says about the speaker cable:
I reckon they’d (Philips back in 1979) have been using thin tinned copper. It gives a meaty, natural sound. Lower damping factor than thick cables due to slightly increased resistance and tonally fuller than OFC in my experience if possibly at the loss of some of the hifiy-ness, hyper detail type sound.
Yes it is really thin. Bell-wire thin. You could almost use it as a tonearm cable. Hooked it up, put on Neil Young with Crazy Horse - 'Ragged Glory' as that was already sat in the player from last time. Like most of his outings with Crazy Horse it's a bit of a rough and ready production, real live feel to it. Recorded in his barn IIRC. Well there's no loss of the 'hify-ness hyper detail sound' - good job because I like that! First impressions are it is better than the two previous cables I have tried, no apparent loss of body plus it sounds nice and crisp and cymbals sound like cymbals and not 'shush-shush' sounds. Every detail of the mix is laid out. I'm struggling to fault it so far but you can't base everything on just listening to one recording. I was worried that there would be no bass with such thin cable but not the case. Got to take into account that I am now used to Krell and their nonsense level grip and weight in the bass, the Black Tulip doesn't have that level of control regardless of the cables used. No slight on the Phillips, not many amplifiers match Krell for that. More later. The Spotfire speaker cable should put a smile on your face! |
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Post by macca on Feb 15, 2020 13:15:57 GMT
Jim I do rate the Spotfire cable but it cannot be used with the Black Tulip amp unless I have new binding posts fitted. Like trying to attach a tow rope to a butterfly.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 15, 2020 13:37:35 GMT
Jim I do rate the Spotfire cable but it cannot be used with the Black Tulip amp unless I have new binding posts fitted. Like trying to attach a tow rope to a butterfly. Lol......good analogy |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 15, 2020 14:01:32 GMT
Jim I do rate the Spotfire cable but it cannot be used with the Black Tulip amp unless I have new binding posts fitted. Like trying to attach a tow rope to a butterfly.  |
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Post by macca on Feb 19, 2020 18:13:56 GMT
Why is that my kit fails faster than I can buy it? Hectic day at work, so thought I'd relax when I got in with some tunes and a couple of cans. But the Sony QS player that has been the daily driver for about a year now has other ideas, keeps spitting the disc out. Okay so it was a Clapton album, but I tried a few others and it still is having none of it. Balls.
Went upstairs to see what else other players I've got that actually still work. Came across a Sony X505ES I'd almost forgot about, so I've stuck that in. Have to say I think I prefer the QS but there's not much in it. And the Sony does have mahogany end cheeks and little LEDs embedded in the buttons - which is nice.
Need to get the Tascam pro back from the shop as if this Sony dies I'm down to a choice between two Marantzs and a Pioneer DVD player.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 19, 2020 18:21:25 GMT
Why is that my kit fails faster than I can buy it? Hectic day at work, so thought I'd relax when I got in with some tunes and a couple of cans. But the Sony QS player that has been the daily driver for about a year now has other ideas, keeps spitting the disc out. Okay so it was a Clapton album, but I tried a few others and it still is having none of it. Balls. Went upstairs to see what else other players I've got that actually still work. Came across a Sony X505ES I'd almost forgot about, so I've stuck that in. Have to say I think I prefer the QS but there's not much in it. And the Sony does have mahogany end cheeks and little LEDs embedded in the buttons - which is nice. Need to get the Tascam pro back from the shop as if this Sony dies I'm down to a choice between two Marantzs and a Pioneer DVD player. Not to be a twat, bit maybe it's time to get some newer bits lol |
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Post by macca on Feb 19, 2020 18:34:21 GMT
But I hate paying VAT! 20 percent to the government who will spunk it up the wall on some nonsense the second they get it.
Only ever bought two CD players brand new. One in 1997 and another in 2007.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 19, 2020 18:39:46 GMT
But I hate paying VAT! 20 percent to the government who will spunk it up the wall on some nonsense the second they get it. Only ever bought two CD players brand new. One in 1997 and another in 2007. Not brand new, but newer than the stuff you have that's breaking down on you? |
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Post by macca on Feb 19, 2020 18:51:24 GMT
Harder to find something good though, the newer you go. Each decade you get more and more cost cutting. Anyway the Tascam is pretty modern - well about 2001 - and that was dead on arrival. Not sure about this Sony, it's a bit leaden and shut in. It was something like two and a half grand back in 1992. That's like six grand in today's money. Weighs a ton. But I deffo prefer the much cheaper QS job. Weird isn't it? This is the one only mine is black.  |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 19, 2020 18:53:31 GMT
Bearing in mind that amp internal wiring is never that thick (I think Linn and Naim used to use RS 50 strand but most others little more than 1.5mm stranded wire, why not make some 'tails' up with tinned bare ends (to keep the strands together) and after a couple of inches, some 4mm sockets?
I suggest this as the 4mm adaptors you have/had on the KSA 50S were added on and were probably brass for all I know (a couple of years now since I last saw them). Honestly, a couple of inches of wire extra over what's inside ain't going to mess anything up... Can you take an inside look at your favourite CD player? If a linear tracker it may be little more than grubby slide rails for the laser or even the laser lens may have a film over it (if you smoke indoors I can almost guarantee it eventually).
I can't remember how the Sony generations went, but the two box player RD had was a little more bassy than most - we loved it but absolutely as it should have been? The La Scala CD player he replaced it with, despite the cheap all round output chip, again has a tad more 'body' to the sound, making it more comfy overall and highly listenable long term, if a touch too bland I suspect to detail freaks. The previous Sony's (555ES I know very well) tended to be the other way, with almost a paint stripping 'detailed' kind of presentation. I remember the AVI dac added to one (one of the very best TDA1541 based models I ever heard) opened up the soundfield no end. I remember comments about the subsequent generation (505?) being warmer in tone which may confirm what you're saying about it. These days, I don't like artifice in the bass and my Micro Seiki from its transformer coupled outputs steps as far in that direction as I want...
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Post by macca on Feb 19, 2020 19:04:43 GMT
Bearing in mind that amp internal wiring is never that thick (I think Linn and Naim used to use RS 50 strand but most others little more than 1.5mm stranded wire, why not make some 'tails' up with tinned bare ends (to keep the strands together) and after a couple of inches, some 4mm sockets?
I suggest this as the 4mm adaptors you have/had on the KSA 50S were added on and were probably brass for all I know (a couple of years now since I last saw them). Honestly, a couple of inches of wire extra over what's inside ain't going to mess anything up... Can you take an inside look at your favourite CD player? If a linear tracker it may be little more than grubby slide rails for the laser or even the laser lens may have a film over it (if you smoke indoors I can almost guarantee it eventually).
I can't remember how the Sony generations went, but the two box player RD had was a little more bassy than most - we loved it but absolutely as it should have been? The La Scala CD player he replaced it with, despite the cheap all round output chip, again has a tad more 'body' to the sound, making it more comfy overall and highly listenable long term, if a touch too bland I suspect to detail freaks. The previous Sony's (555ES I know very well) tended to be the other way, with almost a paint stripping 'detailed' kind of presentation. I remember the AVI dac added to one (one of the very best TDA1541 based models I ever heard) opened up the soundfield no end. I remember comments about the subsequent generation (505?) being warmer in tone which may confirm what you're saying about it. These days, I don't like artifice in the bass and my Micro Seiki from its transformer coupled outputs steps as far in that direction as I want...
Hi Dave Speaker cable situation is sorted for the moment. Whether it is pure chance or my theory that the Phillips would sound better with period thin speaker cable was right, but whatever - it works. With the Cd player you never know. Could be the rails or something like that but could just as easily be a dodgy cap or resistor. Everyone always wants to piss about with the laser straight away, never understood that. It only owed me a pony anyway and I've had thousands of hours out if it. Came out of a studio so probably had a fair few hours on it before it got to me so can't complain. |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 19, 2020 19:24:15 GMT
My DCD 1520 came from an unknown ownership. The machine is very heavy and came with the similar 'fast' Sony mech I think. The slightest contamination causes it to not play properly and on mine, the top laser cover (I believe there's two lenses on this but I can't be sure), has needed cleaning twice, this in a cool room not inclined to dust.
Components in Jap machines don't often fail. My Micro seiki has nice audiophool caps in it, but they used some tar like stuff to anchor them and this corrodes over the years. I've already had to do one repair to an added and anchored transistor, but the rest is a ticking time bomb I reckon and Philips surface mount boards (around the laser and also some of the often unreliable triple-beam late nineties models) are notoriously prone to broken tracks and bad soldering.
My suggestion above is purely an amateurish pragmatic thing, but of course, thousands of hours may well have finished off the laser for all I know. All I can do myself is always to look at the mechanical things first before passing to an expert electronics person after...
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