Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 8, 2022 15:04:18 GMT
Cracking work Chris. I am absolutely delighted to see our membership here taking the bull by the horns and do this kind of stuff themselves. Bravo.
That red wire is probably enameled, and therefore a "proper bastard" as I call it.
Well done. Now......what will they sound like!
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 8, 2022 18:14:35 GMT
Why didn't I do this before.
It's literally like I'd only heard the speaker running at 50% capability, and I was happy with that 😂
Still early days but everything is rich, fluid and dynamic. I'm actually getting notes appear from behind my listening position, something I've not achieved since I moved house and left my old listening room.
Bass is back with more muscle than ever, but it's less boomy, it's taught and precise.
I'll reserve full judgement until everything settles in a bit more but for under £100 (Solen caps are excellent value) I'm not sure I could have spent money any better.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 8, 2022 18:21:39 GMT
Why didn't I do this before. It's literally like I'd only heard the speaker running at 50% capability, and I was happy with that 😂 Still early days but everything is rich, fluid and dynamic. I'm actually getting notes appear from behind my listening position, something I've not achieved since I moved house and left my old listening room. Bass is back with more muscle than ever, but it's less boomy, it's taught and precise. I'll reserve full judgement until everything settles in a bit more but for under £100 (Solen caps are excellent value) I'm not sure I could have spent money any better. They are the best kind of upgrades aren't they, the ones that leave you feeling smug as a bug.
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edward
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Post by edward on Jun 8, 2022 19:12:42 GMT
Excellent result Chris. Good to read that you did this properly with attention to the minor stuff. I guess you are now thinking "Stats or Heco?"
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 8, 2022 19:50:57 GMT
Excellent result Chris. Good to read that you did this properly with attention to the minor stuff. I guess you are now thinking "Stats or Heco?" The thing is Edward, the way these are sounding in this room it's not even a contest for me. The Heco's are a modern, incredibly well built speaker, they have better treble than the Logan's and in the right environment, better bass. I think I'm just a sucker for the stat presentation and in this room (weird dimensions) they just have an enveloping, addictive sound. Some would still prefer the Heco's in here though as they are superior measurements wise....
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edward
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Post by edward on Jun 8, 2022 19:58:29 GMT
Ah right, so no change in the avatar then. Well not yet! At the end of the day we simply have to measure things by the way we get emotionally connected to the sound our gear is able to produce.
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Post by firebottle on Jun 9, 2022 7:50:58 GMT
Delay lines/transformers/whatever well in the way and makes for a fairly shredded hand after removal of the caps . . . . They are power resistors ChrisThe red wire is an absolute pig to solder to, tried to tin it as best I could to get a nice surface to flow onto, needless to say by the last one I'd nailed it . . . . always the way. The wire is enamelled, the only way to remove the enamel properly is to scrape or file it off. Great job and result.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 9, 2022 7:58:45 GMT
Delay lines/transformers/whatever well in the way and makes for a fairly shredded hand after removal of the caps . . . . They are power resistors ChrisThe red wire is an absolute pig to solder to, tried to tin it as best I could to get a nice surface to flow onto, needless to say by the last one I'd nailed it . . . . always the way. The wire is enamelled, the only way to remove the enamel properly is to scrape or file it off. Great job and result.Thanks Alan, haha yeah I think I probably got through the enamel in the end . . . will try scraping it off next time! Cheers
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:01:17 GMT
Excellent result Chris. Good to read that you did this properly with attention to the minor stuff. I guess you are now thinking "Stats or Heco?" I think the HECO's will be in the classifieds before the week is out. Chris is now a "stat man" lol
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 9, 2022 8:10:58 GMT
Excellent result Chris. Good to read that you did this properly with attention to the minor stuff. I guess you are now thinking "Stats or Heco?" I think the HECO's will be in the classifieds before the week is out. Chris is now a "stat man" lol Bada bada beeeb bab bab badab bo . . . . . etc etc Never wasn't to be fair.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:12:23 GMT
I think the HECO's will be in the classifieds before the week is out. Chris is now a "stat man" lol Bada bada beeeb bab bab badab bo . . . . . etc etc Never wasn't to be fair. Hahahaha, I wondered if you'd get the scatman reference. Keep it clean people 😜
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 9, 2022 8:17:02 GMT
Bada bada beeeb bab bab badab bo . . . . . etc etc Never wasn't to be fair. Hahahaha, I wondered if you'd get the scatman reference. Keep it clean people 😜 Think I spent most of summer 95/96 going fricking mental to that tune at a cub camp which had a fairground and lots of sugar. That and Gina G . . . . I kid you not, those tunes along with Black Box, Haddaway, Nightcrawlers, The Original, Strike etc account for most of my musical preference today. I was 9.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:33:00 GMT
Hahahaha, I wondered if you'd get the scatman reference. Keep it clean people 😜 Think I spent most of summer 95/96 going fricking mental to that tune at a cub camp which had a fairground and lots of sugar. That and Gina G . . . . I kid you not, those tunes along with Black Box, Haddaway, Nightcrawlers, The Original, Strike etc account for most of my musical preference today. I was 9. Bangers mate
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 14, 2022 8:15:29 GMT
The SP10 is in the system. Will get some better pics of it and also some listening impressions in due course. Huge thanks to Angus ( phonomac ) for the work involved, hugely appreciated and Oli for putting us in touch. She's a piece that's for sure.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 14, 2022 8:28:24 GMT
The SP10 is in the system. Will get some better pics of it and also some listening impressions in due course. Huge thanks to Angus ( phonomac ) for the work involved, hugely appreciated and Oli for putting us in touch. She's a piece that's for sure. No worries mate. He's a top banana.
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Post by optical on Jun 22, 2022 8:19:36 GMT
So over the past couple of weeks I've been giving both the digital and vinyl sides of the system some thought. Firstly I've been giving my TDA1541 DAC some love. It's always sounded really nice, very organic and rich, streets ahead of pretty much all modern DAC's in that department, not the last word in transparency but thats not the point/trump card of this chip or indeed any valve based DAC I've come across. It has a special output stage with two (very rare) C3G valves. It contains no op-amps or any other non essentials in the signal path. It has a NOS Telefunken transformer as a linear power supply also. So how do I set about improving things . . . . well it does have very basic RCA sockets for both the signal out and the digital coax in. It also has some fairly basic wiring for both of those path in and out of the DAC. It's now well within my remit to replace/upgrade/solder a few wires in place, CCC (of course) for the analogue signal out and some OCC 75ohm stuff for the digital in. I was going to use some RG179 coax cable but I have decided to use the same cable as my digital interconnect is made from for the sake of continuity. It's a solid core one and as it runs a little close to the transformer, has a bit more shielding on it than the RG179. Before: After: Also re-routed the signal carrying wires away from any higher voltage components/paths as some of them were running parallel before. Used these 'rose copper' (red copper I think) RCA sockets to replace the very cheap, thin brass ones. Not usually a level of bling I strive for but against the wooden chassis of the DAC I actually quite like them. Here she is glowing in my rack, the valves really are lovely proportioned things and you can really see inside them. How does it sound? Well as the sockets are vastly improved as is a fair amount of the wiring, as well as a lot of it being relocated away from high voltage components, in a word, better. In more words, a lot better. This DAC does emotion, no question about it, it also does layered 3D textures with a very rich midrange, a heft in the low end and some sparkle up top. Slightly rolled off compared to the Soekris (no surprises there) as well as not digging quite as deep into the recording or that ultimate lower octave of bass, but what is there is more communicative in a way. It's the least digital sounding DAC I've ever heard. Unfortunately it is limited to 16/44.1 so the Soekris takes on all other duties (which is no bad thing) but it's nice swapping between the two for a little contrast now and again.
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Post by optical on Jun 22, 2022 9:03:07 GMT
Following on from the digital side, it was the turn of the vinyl. . . . I've had a bit of an issue since I integrated the SP10 into the system. It's not a SQ issue or indeed a major one, more a real estate one! I have my 7 shelves completely crammed with gear (one of the cons of running two TT's and two DAC's simultaneously) but the goal has always been to have this with the least faffing around to change sources and go from MM/MC cart or SS to valve DAC with the least button presses and certainly no cable swapping allowed! Originally I was going to also run two phono stages but this is out of the question as competition for both space and power outlets is high! My solution has always been to run my little Arcam rPhono for both TT's (AT-LP5 and SP10) as it has switchable inputs for both MM and MC along with adjustable loading. Problem is that the switch to change between them has to be toggled with a flat screwdriver or the special 'key' provided by Arcam (which does slot neatly in the back but is wholly inadequate for quick 'on the fly switching). This means reaching round the back of a less than accessible shelf and fiddling about until you find the right switch which is right next to the rumble filter so it's easy to flick the wrong one once you actually get round there. Not the end of the world granted but it was beginning to do my head in. So I chanced upon a little MM/MC phono stage with one big simple button on the back, can't miss it even when you can't see it. Musical Fidelity V-90 LPS. Well blow me, what a cracking little stage this is. It's about 1/3 the price of the Arcam and sounds every bit as good if I'm being honest. I was expecting it to fall short but it just hasn't. Even with the MC it's is as articulate and well balanced as the Arcam. I'm running it with the same LPSU I was using on the Arcam too as they both run at 12v so that was very handy too. This will more than do as my daily phono stage until I can come up with the funds to do it properly . . . no prizes for guessing what my plan is there . . . haha. With the stage sorted it has now given me the opportunity to play around with a few different carts I've been keeping until the system is really sorted, well that time is now. From top to bottom: Audio Technica 95ex (nude elliptical) - wooden body - AT OCC headshell wires Technics 270C (NOS elliptical) - PC-Triple C headshell wires Shure M55e (Jico elliptical) - AT OCC headshell wires also currently playing on TT: Shure SC35c (aftermarket elliptical stylus) - Ortofon 'vintage' headshell wires My previous favorite of these was the 270c as it just sounded right with everything I've played through it, juicy, lively, pure analogue. However with the fixed loading on the V90 stage the Shure M55 seems to have really come on song. There is a spaciousness to the presentation which I hadn't really heard from it before. It's possible the stylus just needed a bit of breaking in as it is still relatively new or it may just be a better match with this particular stage, either way it sounds ace. As for the SP10, the AT OC9 XEN sounds lovely with the V90 despite it's lack of loading flexibility. I do have some RCA splitters I can use to attach loading plugs but I don't think I'll bother as it's sounding particularly good where it is. In summery I am just listening to lots of stuff now, its great fun.
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Post by firebottle on Jun 22, 2022 9:42:41 GMT
Nice bit of buying/tinkering/playing Chris.
Next step with the Dac is to replace those LM317/337 with something lower noise.
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Post by optical on Jun 22, 2022 9:48:10 GMT
Nice bit of buying/tinkering/playing Chris. Next step with the Dac is to replace those LM317/337 with something lower noise. I'm all ears buddy . . . . I've got a fair few pics of the boards if you fancy having a look for some other suggestions?? Cheers
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Post by optical on Jan 6, 2023 11:54:10 GMT
Haven't updated this for ages (apologies there, as if anyone actually cares LOL). Anyway thought I'd fill people in on a few goings on in my system . . . . A new(ish) DAC has arrived . . . . being perfectly happy with my couple of DAC's that are in rotation, obviously it was the sensible thing to do to get another . . . Lindell Audio DAC X (ten?) AK4397 Delta-Sigma D/A IC from AKM, switchable SS or valve outputs, loads of power supplies . . . 4 in fact. Seems a little overkill in that department but the output stage looks an absolute killer. It sounds excellent, the SS output stage is super clean, detailed and transparent as I've heard and the valve output (although audibly inferior on most material) is a nice little option and certainly adds some romance and emotion to some tracks (acoustic mostly). You don't want the valve stage selected with bass complicated, dynamic stuff, it just can't do it. But an acoustic performance with well recorded vocals, it's the way to go. Definitely a DAC that offers the best of both worlds and at the touch of a button on the remote, incredibly handy for quick A/B-ing, and no nasty pops or delays as it switches over, it's slick. The DAC has highlighted to me that implementation is far more important than chipset and even design incarnation (R2R, D/S, NOS etc etc). Many people have issues with D/S designs giving fatigue, which I have also experienced but it's likely a result of that design iteration when paired with basic power supply and output stage design. If it's done right, it's done right although I have no doubt aforementioned designs could well trump this if as much attention was paid to those two aspects. It's got two balanced inputs (AES) as well as the usual Toslink and Coax sp/dif inputs. Balanced out (with trim pots) and RCA unbalanced out with fairly decent sockets. I'm liking it.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 6, 2023 11:54:25 GMT
So what's been going on (more) recently . . .
Well I've got problems. Some attributed to the room, some attributed to the gear, I'll explain.
The room does have issues, with bass nulls and peaks cancelling standing waves right at the listening spot . . . blah blah blah. Yeah can't change the room, can't change the listening position (for a few years anyway).
The only thing to do is have a lot of acoustic treatment in the corners and ramp the subs up a bit so as to make 'satisfactory' bass at the listening position. It works, it's a band-aid solution I know but it's okay for now, like I say 'satisfactory'. (To be fair it actually sounds bloody decent, BUT I'm genuinely after practically perfect bass, extended, deep and smooth, which starts and stops on a dime . .)
Head in the clouds or what! 😂
In addition to that the room is uneven, so there is image and slight phase 'shift'. Again, treatment can only do so much for this, but it does help.
Again, it's not perfect but it is once again at a satisfactory level. Might not be for everyone but it is for me, right now.
This brings problems too, the amount of treatment required does take away some of the 'bite' of the treble and upper midrange. Not loads but it can make some material sound a tad veiled, when I know ultimately, it's of my own doing as neither the kit nor the recording are to blame here. But everything is a compromise in the room (remember I've been at this in this room for nigh on 3 years, trying all different types of speakers and solution, so I do have a handle on what works and what doesn't as well as having to come to terms with all these 'compromises').
Anyway, ANOTHER additional problem has been rearing it's head more recently. One of the panels on my Martin Logans is losing sensitivity. It's not enough to ruin the performance, but it does shift the image to one side.
There has been a solution to this (although again, very temporary and potentially destructive).
Room correction . . . .
I've used it before and successfully so BUT it always seems to rob a bit of soul from the music. Be it the actual processing or adding circuitry and cables, there is a real change to the music.
I'm basically boosting the lost/reduced frequencies going to one panel. One side (with the working panel) is bypassed by the processing engine and the other is receiving 'extra' signal boost from the upper bass/lower mids all the way up to the top end (300Hz-20khz). Only a couple of db at any frequency and I have shelves and cuts in there so it's not a completely linear 'boost'. But it does seem to work. It certainly rebalances the image and as this is the most distracting aspect for now, it does satisfy.
There's that word again, I know that ultimately, I'm not going to be satisfied with satisfactory, but needs must at this stage. Other speakers still suck compared to the Logans in my room, even in their dying state 😬.
As the panel is dying anyway, I'm not too concerned with feeding it 'too much' signal. If it was a conventional speaker and it was low frequencies', I'd be a little more apprehensive.
So why do it this way, why not just use a passive attenuator on the other speaker (to reduce it's output to the same level).
Well simply because the low end from both speakers is fine, ie: because the frequencies are already split via the crossover and sent to the drivers and the panels respectively (at 250hz), I'd have to find a passive/analogue way to only boost/reduce the frequencies to the panel. The only real (and easiest solution for me) is to have quite an aggressive rising shelf on the room correction EQ starting around 250hz.
Also if I were to reduce the output of the other speaker to the same level as the dying it would reduce fidelity further as the response curve from the dying speaker is certainly suffering so it needs additional help from the 'good' speaker filling in some gaps.
However this creates an additional problem. . . . . would you believe it LOL.
Now the signal is rebalanced after going through the speakers BUT prior to that the signal on one side is obviously a bit higher than the other. I have my system setup as to offer maximum headroom for dynamic swings in the music, this means attention has been paid to gain/volume within the digital domain (and within the EQ processor). That's right, it's now clipping on some loud and busy recordings . . . it's not too intrusive but you can hear it, especially once you've heard it once, it's difficult to ignore.
Not so much a problem with the vinyl setup (as although it still uses EQ, it's analogue EQ within the same processor) so soft clipping in the analogue domain doesn't really irk like it does in the digital. I experienced this before with the Soekris 1421 DAC and had to knock -2db off the output to stop it from clipping which DID rob some fidelity. I know it shouldn't as it was trimming the digital signal before it was even converted but it just didn't sound as good, even when the volume was increased to match the level of when it was outputting at 0.0db. Dynamics suffered, 100%.
So there we have it, pretty much a tale of woe . . . haha
Having said all that it does actually sound pretty good, certainly a lot better than it should with the band-aid solutions and general issues I'm facing.
However in a couple of weeks I hope to be able to say goodbye to quite a few of the above issues . . . . I shall update as and when, hopefully won't take me 6 months this time 😁
Cheers all.
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Post by pete on Jan 6, 2023 12:14:51 GMT
Interesting update, thanks for posting. Curious about what may happen in a couple of weeks!
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Post by brian2957 on Jan 6, 2023 12:20:20 GMT
Lol...you been storing all this pent up 'audiophilitis' for months Chris? Great thought provoking post BTW Couple of suggestions for you. 1. Invite some of your mates round for a beer and listening session, who will surely tell you how fantastic your system sounds and ultimately tell you not to bother changing things too much 2. Get your speakers serviced/repaired. 3. Move your system to the best room in the house and relocate the family 4. Indulge yourself in this hobby for over 40 years, suffer some hearing loss, then decide it is what it is, and just settle down and enjoy the music I know, I know....I've done and thought pretty much all you're doing today, although when I was younger 'room correction' was done via amplifier tone controls and channel balance Loved your post mate, even if I didn't understand it all
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Post by optical on Jan 6, 2023 12:31:09 GMT
Lol...you been storing all this pent up 'audiophilitis' for months Chris? Great thought provoking post BTW Couple of suggestions for you. 1. Invite some of your mates round for a beer and listening session, who will surely tell you how fantastic your system sounds and ultimately tell you not to bother changing things too much 2. Get your speakers serviced/repaired. 3. Move your system to the best room in the house and relocate the family 4. Indulge yourself in this hobby for over 40 years, suffer some hearing loss, then decide it is what it is, and just settle down and enjoy the music I know, I know....I've done and thought pretty much all you're doing today, although when I was younger 'room correction' was done via amplifier tone controls and channel balance Loved your post mate, even if I didn't understand it all Yeah, reading it back I'm certainly talking round in circles a bit . . . apologies for that but had to get some aggrievances down after this long! Haha. Your suggestions are valid mate and don't think I haven't considered every single one of them. To be fair when people do hear it they are pretty much universally flawed . . . but then their hifi experience usually extends to a Sonos mono speaker or Sony soundbar . . . . Ultimately, I will be moving the system if I truly cannot get a satisfactory solution but that takes planning and convincing . . . after I managed to convince those whom matter that I should have all my gear in the loft A set of new panels is near enough 4k . . . . hence why I'm exploring other avenues. There may come a point where I do have to bite the bullet and go for it, but there may be another solution in sight, as I say, the next few weeks could be very interesting . . . Cheers
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Post by brian2957 on Jan 6, 2023 12:45:40 GMT
Not going round in circles mate. It usually gets things straight when we get them written down, just like you have done here. It does seem like you have options and I hope they work. Trouble is we audiophiles (me included) have a habit of overthinking things which ultimately adversely affects our experience when listening to music. Myself, I'm a cable builder/swapper. Always swapping cables in and out Ultimately, it's my hearing , not the system. But hey ho, I wouldn't have it any other way Just keep on doing what you're doing mate. It is our passion and our hobby after all
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Post by Arke on Jan 6, 2023 13:14:15 GMT
Great update optical! Fingers crossed you will find a solution in the next few weeks! May the force be with you!
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edward
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Post by edward on Jan 6, 2023 18:16:03 GMT
Great updates Chris. 4k for new panels. Sheesh. I can quite understand why you are considering something else. My my - what can that be? <bated breath emoji>
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Post by jimbo on Jan 6, 2023 18:43:38 GMT
A great rambling post Chris, sometimes you just have to throw all the pieces in the air and figure out what is the best fit. It looks very much like you have situation of strengths and weaknesses. A problem room and a system that could sound great if the room played ball. I guess no matter what kit you had in that room there maybe always some issue. I remember you had issues getting the Heco's to sound right in there? Lucky are we that have great sounding rooms or manage to configure a system that fits the room? I think this suggest the possibility that with so many variables and possible issues the only real solution is compromise! I certainly would not use room correction electronics as you have found they tend o cause as many issues as they solve but physical room correction as you have suggested would get you possibly closer to where you want to be albeit with the issues this can introduce ( rolled off top end)? Ultimately however you may need a different room to answer all your issues and allow your system to play nice? As you know I have been exposed to extreme room acoustics through a friends very expensive and time consuming endeavours but not many of us can achieve this as the time, cost and upheaval to a room can be prohibitive. As you have found even simple quick room treatment can have unwanted side effects. It is a long and winding road to achieve system synergy in a room. Your imaging and phase issues sound problematic but I have found that simply moving the speakers or listening position can address this problem unless there is an underlying serious problem with the equipment or room. Your issues of speaker dynamics and clipping does sound like an inbalance caused by the amplification/speaker interaction and room. This maybe a problem that could be solved but I have come across this before where in order to achieve satisfying dynamics you attenuate the volume so much it unleashes nasties elsewhere. A perfect acoustic could help address this but not guaranteed. I have heard a near perfect room which measures superbly but at high volume levels the system becomes a little too shout. Interestingly this was usually when using digital as a front end. Ultimately I have found with many of the issues you have experienced compromise is the only solution. accentuate the positive aspects of your system and live with some of the negative aspects. No system can ever sound great with all material and sources and no room/system sounds correct all the time in my experience. There are always niggles and problems and you can go on forever trying to address them. I find getting a system in the ball park for long term listening in order to sit back and enjoy the music is key. It sounds like you have lots of things going right with just a few issues that are stopping it from sounding perfect but when it involves room acoustics this is always a huge and seriously difficult area to get absolutely right without major disruption to the home. The friend I have gave up just messing with equipment because he knew that no matter what he did there would always be issues many of which disappeared when he concentrated on the room! I took a leaf out of his book and when I bought the house I live in now the music room was considered to be the most important aspects. I found a superbly proportioned large room and it got me 80% to where I needed to be with only a change of speakers. I could put almost any large speakers in here and I am sure they would sound great but it is a very expensive option I know buying a house in order to get a great room but far cheaper that the route my friend took! Sorry about the rambling reply to a rambling post Chris but you put down enough thought provoking stuff to get off my arse and type something! Nice to hear your thoughts where you believe you have got too currently. Good luck with your progress with your system.
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Post by antonio on Jan 7, 2023 3:36:15 GMT
optical Welcome back to the forum, looking forward to finding out all the answers to the universe in the next few weeks. brian2957 A man after my own heart, with age comes common sense with this hobby. @bigman80 My Soekris keeps flashing 'clipping', what's the solution, a sledge hammer?
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Post by firebottle on Jan 7, 2023 7:57:40 GMT
Dave just turn the volume control down one notch or two, that cures it.
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