Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2022 16:39:25 GMT
Silent Coat now installed in Croft pre amp. Thank you Bruce! The case certainly rings less when tapped and airborne vibration much reduced to the point it barely perceptible. Good result. Top forum-ing there by Bruce. |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 23, 2022 18:08:12 GMT
Noticed that the hum from the toroids is also less as the case is now better damped. I think the case lid was amplifying the hum of the toroids but now much reduced. Going to sort the power amplifier tomorrow.
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Post by brucew268 on Feb 23, 2022 18:36:07 GMT
Noticed that the hum from the toroids is also less as the case is now better damped. I think the case lid was amplifying the hum of the toroids but now much reduced. Going to sort the power amplifier tomorrow. Great to hear. It's a happy day when a fix is cheap and quick, once applied! |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 23, 2022 18:39:28 GMT
Noticed that the hum from the toroids is also less as the case is now better damped. I think the case lid was amplifying the hum of the toroids but now much reduced. Going to sort the power amplifier tomorrow. Great to hear. It's a happy day when a fix is cheap and quick, once applied! I was surprised how little was needed to sort the lid out. Look forward to sorting the power amp tomorrow. Many thanks Bruce. |
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Post by brucew268 on Feb 23, 2022 18:43:27 GMT
Have you noticed any difference in the sound now that the valves have a little less vibration to deal with?
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Post by jimbo on Feb 23, 2022 18:53:58 GMT
Have you noticed any difference in the sound now that the valves have a little less vibration to deal with? Err yes but I didn't want to say anything as I thought folk would think I was crazy  It has actually dampened the valves slightly - taken away a touch of microphony which I am sure was caused by the interaction of the lid vibrating. If anyone has valves and has heard microphonic vs non microphonic they will know where I am coming from! I think this should be included in any amplifier build where valves are encased in metal box of any material. If anyone is using a valve phono stage stick a piece of this in the lid and hear what happens!  |
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Post by antonio on Feb 23, 2022 19:08:48 GMT
Could always look at tube dampers, cheap as chips on AliExpress.
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Post by brucew268 on Feb 23, 2022 19:50:29 GMT
Could always look at tube dampers, cheap as chips on AliExpress. At least on my little headphone amplifier using nitrile O-rings, it took a bit of experimentation to determine the right thickness, very easy to overdo. In the end I preferred soft footers for the amplifier instead of damping directly to the valves... though they are small valves. As with all this, experimentation seems to be key.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 23, 2022 19:53:48 GMT
Could always look at tube dampers, cheap as chips on AliExpress. At least on my little headphone amplifier using nitrile O-rings, it took a bit of experimentation to determine the right thickness, very easy to overdo. In the end I preferred soft footers for the amplifier instead of damping directly to the valves... though they are small valves. As with all this, experimentation seems to be key.
We are on the same page Bruce as I found tube damping rings were not great and removed them from my valves sometime back. The route I have gone down preventing airborne vibration getting to the amplifier chassis/case via the lid has been more effective. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 2, 2022 19:33:04 GMT
A few days on now with the damped case using the Silent Coat and I am very impressed. I have certainly found almost no vibration from the lid even at high volumes and the valves have also benefited. When I looked at the whole construction the valves are on a metal bracket attached to the base of the case so any vibrations would have worked there way up and via the valve sockets and into the valves. I feel this has improved valve microphonic interaction better than using damping rings.
If you know what a microphonic valve sounds like in your system vs non microphonic you will know where I am coming from.
Here is a fun video on Microphonic tubes!
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 2, 2022 19:55:00 GMT
A few days on now with the damped case using the Silent Coat and I am very impressed. I have certainly found almost no vibration from the lid even at high volumes and the valves have also benefited. When I looked at the whole construction the valves are on a metal bracket attached to the base of the case so any vibrations would have worked there way up and via the valve sockets and into the valves. I feel this has improved valve microphonic interaction better than using damping rings. If you know what a microphonic valve sounds like in your system vs non microphonic you will know where I am coming from. Here is a fun video on Microphonic tubes! Yeah, metal brackets holding valve bases is very likely to have sent a lot of vibration through the valves themselves, so absolutely great result if this mat has helped prevent some of that. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 5, 2022 20:39:08 GMT
After a noticeable effect on my preamp after installing some Silent Coat i am going to try some in the Power Amp tomorrow.
Not expecting anything much but there is another valve in there and another buzzing toroid.
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Post by mikeyb on Mar 6, 2022 18:10:44 GMT
Won't it start to smell when your amp heats up?
SS amp might be fine but I'm not sure about a valve amp? Unless of course the foil top coat reflects the heat.
There was some fitted to my TQ Claymore amp and it took Colin Wonfor hours and several nasty chemicals to remove it.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 6, 2022 18:47:16 GMT
Won't it start to smell when your amp heats up? SS amp might be fine but I'm not sure about a valve amp? Unless of course the foil top coat reflects the heat. There was some fitted to my TQ Claymore amp and it took Colin Wonfor hours and several nasty chemicals to remove it. No smell, foil coat reflects the heat and I have not place the Silent Coat above the valves. |
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Post by mikeyb on Mar 6, 2022 19:43:29 GMT
😊
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Post by jimbo on Mar 12, 2022 10:06:38 GMT
Just popped some Silent Coat into my power amp which has a large toroid and just one input valve. Not expecting much but who knows?
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Post by jimbo on Mar 13, 2022 20:55:39 GMT
Who would have thought that Silent Coat could make such a difference in my power amp but indeed it has made a significant noticeable increase in clarity and focus. There is only one valve in the Power amp and the toroid was noisy. I went to town with the Silent coat on the sides and under the lid and it has made the amp much much quieter.
This has translated in a massive reduction in vibration getting through to the components and thus the very noticeable uplift in SQ. Like I said the main benefits are Clarity and focus but the background has also got quieter.
I would suggest to anyone even with SS amps give this stuff a try, its a no brainer.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2022 22:13:35 GMT
Who would have thought that Silent Coat could make such a difference in my power amp but indeed it has made a significant noticeable increase in clarity and focus. There is only one valve in the Power amp and the toroid was noisy. I went to town with the Silent coat on the sides and under the lid and it has made the amp much much quieter. This has translated in a massive reduction in vibration getting through to the components and thus the very noticeable uplift in SQ. Like I said the main benefits are Clarity and focus but the background has also got quieter. I would suggest to anyone even with SS amps give this stuff a try, its a no brainer. Glad you've had a positive result with this Jim, but I wonder whether it would be as effective with different casework? Reason I am thinking this way is that the casework I use for the BB and Avalon stuff is extremely rigid, thick stuff. The casework for the Avalon stuff is about 6-7kgs alone. 4mm thick solid Alu base, lid and sides .... Front plate is 10mm.... I put them on Silicone feet, which are the best little hifi upgrades I have found in ages. With something so heavy for its size, almost dead to the tap and on super absorbent feet, Solid state too, could this stuff make any difference? Maybe i should have a bash? |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 14, 2022 7:00:26 GMT
I was surprised at the effectiveness of the Silent coat on my case Oli but as you have pointed out correctly it is quite thin.
I think even with a thick casework material the silent coat will dampen down any 'ringing' or vibration of the case work. Anything metal no matter how thick will be susceptible to some vibration obvious an order of magnitude depending on thickness
I have been doing some research on component vibration and was surprised to find out amongst the usual suspects which are affected, even capacitors can be compromised by vibration.
I also used to get a lot of noise and buzz/hum from the toroids but damping the casework has hugely reduced this. I can only think the casework 'undampened' amplified the sound somewhat and accentuated the noise. I know valves are the prime suspect regarding vibration so damping the casework has stopped vibration getting through to them but I would not be surprised if stopping vibration getting through to any electrical components would also be beneficial.
Most anti vibration technology (Feet, roller shelves, sorbathane, shelving/equipment supports etc) has been aimed at eliminating vibration outside your equipment. This Silent coat takes the vibration control to the inside and for me it has been very effective not only in reducing case/component vibration but also enhancing the audio quality.
Last night although i mentioned better clarity and focus I also observed better separation in the recording which allowed for a more 3D soundstage.
I am usually fairly quick to dismiss stuff if i think its snake oil or none effective but for me this stuff has been superb. Wish I had discovered it earlier. Anyhow no harm giving it a try on your casework on the lid and sides. I did not have to use too much either probably four squares 2 inches x 2 inches.
This stuff has worked as well as or even better than my turntable isolation - thats how highly I rate it!
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 14, 2022 7:54:23 GMT
I was surprised at the effectiveness of the Silent coat on my case Oli but as you have pointed out correctly it is quite thin. I think even with a thick casework material the silent coat will dampen down any 'ringing' or vibration of the case work. Anything metal no matter how thick will be susceptible to some vibration obvious an order of magnitude depending on thickness I have been doing some research on component vibration and was surprised to find out amongst the usual suspects which are affected, even capacitors can be compromised by vibration. I also used to get a lot of noise and buzz/hum from the toroids but damping the casework has hugely reduced this. I can only think the casework 'undampened' amplified the sound somewhat and accentuated the noise. I know valves are the prime suspect regarding vibration so damping the casework has stopped vibration getting through to them but I would not be surprised if stopping vibration getting through to any electrical components would also be beneficial. Most anti vibration technology (Feet, roller shelves, sorbathane, shelving/equipment supports etc) has been aimed at eliminating vibration outside your equipment. This Silent coat takes the vibration control to the inside and for me it has been very effective not only in reducing case/component vibration but also enhancing the audio quality. Last night although i mentioned better clarity and focus I also observed better separation in the recording which allowed for a more 3D soundstage. I am usually fairly quick to dismiss stuff if i think its snake oil or none effective but for me this stuff has been superb. Wish I had discovered it earlier. Anyhow no harm giving it a try on your casework on the lid and sides. I did not have to use too much either probably four squares 2 inches x 2 inches. This stuff has worked as well as or even better than my turntable isolation - thats how highly I rate it! Ok, im in. I'll give it a whirl. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 14, 2022 8:38:41 GMT
I think you biggest bang for buck would be in the BB3 and BBu - anything with those little glass bottles!
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Post by macca on Mar 14, 2022 8:56:48 GMT
The bloke who runs March Audio did vibration testing on solid state equipment, found that even applying high levels of vibration made zero difference to the output of the equipment. He did vibration testing for a living before he retired and started March.
he put the results up on a couple of forums, it's on PFM somewhere I think but I'm not a member there so I can't find it but it's there. Would be maybe 4 or 5 years ago now.
So I wouldn't bother with it for solid state, valves it may be different, he didn't test any valve kit.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 14, 2022 9:15:17 GMT
My situation may have been a worst case scenario with buzzing toroids and glass bottles all in close proximity in a thin metal case.
A SS amplifier which is totally quiet and vibration free with thicker metal casework may not achieve the same results?
However tube gear will always be susceptible to vibration no matter how thick the casework.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 14, 2022 9:37:33 GMT
My situation may have been a worst case scenario with buzzing toroids and glass bottles all in close proximity in a thin metal case. A SS amplifier which is totally quiet and vibration free with thicker metal casework may not achieve the same results? However tube gear will always be susceptible to vibration no matter how thick the casework. I've been thinking about this a bit, and I reckon the P2P wiring in the Croft probably didn't help either? I read a datasheet for a capacitor I was using ages ago, and in the print it said to "affix firmly to the PCB" After a bit of investigation, it suggested that leaving them off the board causes some sort of ringing/distortion peak if they were subjected to vibration. I mean, I think it's probably an extreme case scenario type of result, but I'm wondering if the PCB approach to valves actually helps here? I know in the BBu that using silicone PCB mounts and silicone feet reduced any issues from vibration that I could hear? |
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Post by brucew268 on Mar 14, 2022 10:15:48 GMT
I don't recall noticing a difference on my SS amplifier but my preamplifiers were easily affected by Silent Coat, not always for good. Loss of harmonics and life if too much used. Also if using big filter capacitors I've noticed the sound can change depending on how they they are mounted. It's easy to test. Put a zip tie tightly around the can(s) in the middle, listen, then move right to the edge and listen again. These methods are about damping, so perhaps are more about changing the resonant frequency of vibration rather than removing it.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 14, 2022 10:18:20 GMT
My situation may have been a worst case scenario with buzzing toroids and glass bottles all in close proximity in a thin metal case. A SS amplifier which is totally quiet and vibration free with thicker metal casework may not achieve the same results? However tube gear will always be susceptible to vibration no matter how thick the casework. I've been thinking about this a bit, and I reckon the P2P wiring in the Croft probably didn't help either? I read a datasheet for a capacitor I was using ages ago, and in the print it said to "affix firmly to the PCB" After a bit of investigation, it suggested that leaving them off the board causes some sort of ringing/distortion peak if they were subjected to vibration. I mean, I think it's probably an extreme case scenario type of result, but I'm wondering if the PCB approach to valves actually helps here? I know in the BBu that using silicone PCB mounts and silicone feet reduced any issues from vibration that I could hear? I would have thought valves and capacitors would vibrate even more being attached to a PCB board? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 14, 2022 11:47:58 GMT
I've been thinking about this a bit, and I reckon the P2P wiring in the Croft probably didn't help either? I read a datasheet for a capacitor I was using ages ago, and in the print it said to "affix firmly to the PCB" After a bit of investigation, it suggested that leaving them off the board causes some sort of ringing/distortion peak if they were subjected to vibration. I mean, I think it's probably an extreme case scenario type of result, but I'm wondering if the PCB approach to valves actually helps here? I know in the BBu that using silicone PCB mounts and silicone feet reduced any issues from vibration that I could hear? I would have thought valves and capacitors would vibrate even more being attached to a PCB board? Why? A tensioned wire will make a noise if you twang it....never heard a PCB do that 🤣 |
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Post by brucew268 on Mar 14, 2022 11:53:57 GMT
I would have thought valves and capacitors would vibrate even more being attached to a PCB board? Why? A tensioned wire will make a noise if you twang it....never heard a PCB do that 🤣 True, and I would think it vibrates less or at least at a better frequency. Have you ever mounted a PCB on nylon standoffs and then changed them for brass standoffs? |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 14, 2022 11:54:42 GMT
Yeah but a PCB board is liable to vibrate just as much as casework.
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Post by brucew268 on Mar 14, 2022 11:59:26 GMT
Yeah but a PCB board is liable to vibrate just as much as casework. I think of PCB material as damper than steel and resonant at a different frequency. FR4 compared to aluminium I'd be more uncertain. |
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