Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2018 16:08:50 GMT
I’m guessing many of us have had experience of these over the years, they have made it possible for many people to get a superdeck without spending megabucks on an arm. They can sound good as stock, but there have been many mods and upgrades available. Here’s my take:
R200: As stock, I don’t rate this arm at all, based on my experiences, but maybe one day I will hear one impress me. When I was young, a few people came into the shop and upgraded their Planar 2 and 3 by fitting and RB series arm. Improvements weren’t subtle, and the R200 arms we removed were banned because they had no resale value. Today these are revered by some. Anyone played with them or had one retired/ rebuilt what are your thoughts?
RB250/300: I’ve had a few of these. From stock they have varied from decent to really good. Modded they have been several steps higher up the food chain. Significant improvements come from the Origin Live structural mod or the Pete Riggle CCM (Counterweight for the Common Man). Both are pretty much identical in construction and it’s hard to believe such a simple mod can lift the arm so much.
Rewires? I’ve had a few of these too. Good results again, but varies depending on cable chosen.
The best upgrade I’ve saved for last. Pete Riggle’s VTAF with Teflon insert turns the Rega arm into another beast altogether, especially if it’s rewired and fitted with CCM or OL structural mod.
What does VTAF do? Well apart from giving you vta adjustment on the fly, it also decouples the arm completely from the deck. The freedom it gives to the sound reminds me of unioivots in many ways, but with the dynamics of a conventional arm left intact.
The Pete Riggle bits are sold from the USA but Pete ships anywhere. I’ve bought a few of his bits over the years and regretted selling every time.
Rega 3 point mount arms: no experience of these because the cheaper ones have a real nasty feel to them. Maybe others can comment, especially when it comes to the more expensive Rega arms of today.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 18, 2018 18:21:31 GMT
Just get a bloody NAS turntable (feck the finish), stick a Rega arm in its collet (easy VTA if it means so much to you and your stylus) with maybe a humble AT-F7 or 2M bronze and laugh smugly at everyone else spending thousands on their mini oil-rig confections!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have an R200 here, with Pro Patch (same as AO's Johnnie used) exit wires. It's musical, deeply involving and tracks a Decca I discovered with ease and grace. Trouble is, it's inclined to feed back - the price I believe you pay for the way it's fitted and the detachable headshell and 'easy but sloppy' musicality. Sounded way above it's station on my TD125 with a variety of cartridges I remember, but crap on my mule 24V motor RP3 for some reason... The latest arms have internal refinements in the tube casting I understand, which all but remove remaining structural resonances (they certainly measure well whenever HFW have tested them), the three point mount may well help with arm-board choice too (NAS still use their collets which allowed the old ones to sing so sweetly). I was able to set up a current Planar 3 (RB330) with 2m Bronze last year and it sounded great to me - really funky and I didn't think the engineering on this one was crap at all! The arms fitted to the Planar 2 now and the plastic bearing RP1 tonearm have fixed bias which I don't feel is appropriate myself.
P.S. Westie - my R200 was given to me in need of an external re-wire when our local audio dealer closed down and it was basically Planar 2 spec - more vertical play in the horizontal bearings (they're gravity loaded so it's feel more than anything else) and no damping material on the out-rigger which is easily fitted in fairness. What you probably never realised is that the arm resonances (and the related PL-71 superior version) are amongst the best for this type of arm - very clean and evenly distributed. You obviously never did the 'tune dem' either, 'cos it's SO easy to make an RB300 sound tuneless and flat/dead/bring/bland and so on and on a Rega deck, it often sounded this way musically unless you used a lively cartridge like a Goldring 1042, which seemed to work well here (it doesn't in many other applications though - sorry Jammy)... I only really discovered what it could do when I heard one on a Spacedeck thirty years ago. I love the R200, but acknowledge it's weaknesses as a stand alone arm...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2018 18:46:38 GMT
Just get a bloody NAS turntable (feck the finish), stick a Rega arm in its collet (easy VTA if it means so much to you and your stylus) with maybe a humble AT-F7 or 2M bronze and laugh smugly at everyone else spending thousands on their mini oil-rig confections!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have an R200 here, with Pro Patch (same as AO's Johnnie used) exit wires. It's musical, deeply involving and tracks a Decca I discovered with ease and grace. Trouble is, it's inclined to feed back - the price I believe you pay for the way it's fitted and the detachable headshell and 'easy but sloppy' musicality. Sounded way above it's station on my TD125 with a variety of cartridges I remember, but crap on my mule 24V motor RP3 for some reason... The latest arms have internal refinements in the tube casting I understand, which all but remove remaining structural resonances (they certainly measure well whenever HFW have tested them), the three point mount may well help with arm-board choice too (NAS still use their collets which allowed the old ones to sing so sweetly). I was able to set up a current Planar 3 (RB330) with 2m Bronze last year and it sounded great to me - really funky and I didn't think the engineering on this one was crap at all! The arms fitted to the Planar 2 now and the plastic bearing RP1 tonearm have fixed bias which I don't feel is appropriate myself.
P.S. Westie - my R200 was given to me in need of an external re-wire when our local audio dealer closed down and it was basically Planar 2 spec - more vertical play in the horizontal bearings (they're gravity loaded so it's feel more than anything else) and no damping material on the out-rigger which is easily fitted in fairness. What you probably never realised is that the arm resonances (and the related PL-71 superior version) are amongst the best for this type of arm - very clean and evenly distributed. You obviously never did the 'tune dem' either, 'cos it's SO easy to make an RB300 sound tuneless and flat/dead/bring/bland and so on and on a Rega deck, it often sounded this way musically unless you used a lively cartridge like a Goldring 1042, which seemed to work well here (it doesn't in many other applications though - sorry Jammy)... I only really discovered what it could do when I heard one on a Spacedeck thirty years ago. I love the R200, but acknowledge it's weaknesses as a stand alone arm...
Great post, Dave. Packed with so much I didn’t know! I’ll be googling Pro At h straight away as I really rate J7. If it’s good enough for him, I want to know more! I didn’t know about tube casting refinements either. RB250 or 300 was always good on a Xerxes, so I have had a soft spot for them for many years due to my love for the Roksan. My days were pre-tune dem  I’d agree with the Goldrings sounding good with those arms too. I lack experience of later Rega decks and arms, but I hope one day to catch up with them. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 18, 2018 19:29:28 GMT
I have a used AO tonearm exit cable bought half price from an eBay seller with an SME IV who claimed it was better than the VDH SME supplied. I'd already used this stuff (Van Damme pro patch mic cable, the inner cores hot and return and the screen connected at the far end) and liked it. My Tune dem was at the Linn factory in May 1981 (the Linn chip didn't always fit very well where the sun don't shine  ), but this stays with me cos that's how I always listened as explained many times in the past... |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2018 19:58:38 GMT
I have a used AO tonearm exit cable bought half price from an eBay seller with an SME IV who claimed it was better than the VDH SME supplied. I'd already used this stuff (Van Damme pro patch mic cable, the inner cores hot and return and the screen connected at the far end) and liked it. My Tune dem was at the Linn factory in May 1981 (the Linn chip didn't always fit very well where the sun don't shine ), but this stays with me cos that's how I always listened as explained many times in the past... I remember Pete Nowicki demoing Linn and Naim players to me at Stereo Stereo and being utterly perplexed at me preferring the Naim. He kept asking me to follow the tune but there was more to it than that. The Naim just sounded more “human”. It may have some uses but it isn’t the only criterion and it isn’t always likely to make the Linn component the winner either |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 22:24:41 GMT
I owned the R200, RB250 and RB300. The R200 was a disaster. I bought it defective, it required a bias mech belt as the original had (as they all do eventually) crumbled into bits. I bought the last replacement belt kit on the UK market (at the time). Fitting is was a fair bit of buggering about, the main bugbear was finding the correct engagement position for the internal plastic helix mechanism on reassembly. And in the end it sounded crap anyway!! At the money the Linn Basic LV-V is in a different league.  The RB250 I had was kept standard and mounted on a Technics SL-1210 Mk.II. It was OK(ish), but nowhere approaching wonderful by any means. The following RB300 had a rewire (can't recall what wire) and a bronze counterweight upgrade from Transfi. I also used a custom weight stub (can't recall which). It was also used with the SL-1210. I wasn't impressed with this one either. So having messed about with Rega arms for a year or so, I bunged my Mission 774 back on. What a relief! It was as though somebody had opened a pair of curtains between me and the music. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 3:35:06 GMT
I owned the R200, RB250 and RB300. The R200 was a disaster. I bought it defective, it required a bias mech belt as the original had (as they all do eventually) crumbled into bits. I bought the last replacement belt kit on the UK market (at the time). Fitting is was a fair bit of buggering about, the main bugbear was finding the correct engagement position for the internal plastic helix mechanism on reassembly. And in the end it sounded crap anyway!! At the money the Linn Basic LV-V is in a different league. The RB250 I had was kept standard and mounted on a Technics SL-1210 Mk.II. It was OK(ish), but nowhere approaching wonderful by any means. The following RB300 had a rewire (can't recall what wire) and a bronze counterweight upgrade from Transfi. I also used a custom weight stub (can't recall which). It was also used with the SL-1210. I wasn't impressed with this one either. So having messed about with Rega arms for a year or so, I bunged my Mission 774 back on. What a relief! It was as though somebody had opened a pair of curtains between me and the music. Great to hear in mot the only one who thinks the R200 totally sucks, Geoff. The bias belt issue alone makes them a dubious buy, yet people are paying more for them than newer Regas. Having heard the differences on decks I upgraded for customers, I could never undo the impression the comparison made on me. I saw a 774 on a Linn armboard for £150 just recently on EBay. I was sorely tempted. Wish I’d grabbed it now..... |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 19, 2018 10:38:45 GMT
FFS, I set up HUNDREDS of these effers and can assure you that they are as 'musical' as I said so many times, the only shortcoming is that the easier presentation made older Regas feed back which the later RB arms didn't! the RB arms are better 'HiFi' arms even if iffy-mounted, but you need to work at mounting and cartridge to get good music out of them in my experience - I repeat, the collet mounting allowed them to sing really sweetly and with little to no obvious sonic constriction..
My own R200 has a delrin/nylon style of bias belt and I remember once, there was a Mitsubishi toothed drive belt the right size and I have memories of fixing a couple back in the day. the bias setting on the R200 was slightly lower than usual so when I 'fixed' them I'd try to improve on that. RB arms all seem to have too much bias correction, so a 1.75g tracking usually had for me, a 1g or less boas setting to prevent uneven stylus wear (I saw enough K9 diamonds asymetrically worn to judge here). Ittoks were to low and Basik arms again, a bit too high in correction settings.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 19, 2018 10:40:18 GMT
As for someone replacing an R200 with a Linn LVV - you are serious, right?  ? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 15:31:43 GMT
 I still think the R200 sucks ass big time Sorry, too tempting If it helps I think the SME 3009 is almost as bad. Linn LVV? I have owned one but I don’t think I ever put it to use. LVX was poor to my ears though. I liked the Akito though (I know you weren’t too keen). I could take or leave the Ittok, but I really liked my Ekos. Vive La Difference, I say
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Post by dsjr on Jul 19, 2018 16:21:36 GMT
I still think the R200 sucks ass big time Sorry, too tempting If it helps I think the SME 3009 is almost as bad. Linn LVV? I have owned one but I don’t think I ever put it to use. LVX was poor to my ears though. I liked the Akito though (I know you weren’t too keen). I could take or leave the Ittok, but I really liked my Ekos. Vive La Difference, I say First Akito's were made of what seemed like metallic plasticine and every part was easily crushed by ham fisted dealers and clients! Second issue ones were better, but to me, sounded grainy as hell and despite Linn's claims the sound was as good as an early Ittok, it bloody well wasn't - I did the comparison!!! Current Akitos are a complete joke at £1600 a piece from memory and are no better I believe...
LVV's varied and came out of a parts bin in all honesty. I used a good one at home for a short while (in between Ittoks - how effin' derivative!) and with a typical mm cartridge (R100, K9 and 95E), it was funky enough on a fruitbox era LP12. The LVX had a severe headshell socket-joint problem but sounded smooth once fixed with stud-loc (I forget the number, but it's the green goo used to lock tape-head screws in place).
The Basik Plus we thought much better. Lively, a bit raw, but perfect for a K9 and similar. There's a straight-tube Jelco which kind of takes over from it for currently £300 or so and resonates at high frequencies much the same (gathering a few reviews in my head while typing).
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 16:35:03 GMT
You’ll, swear I’m making this up but I also compared Akito and LVII. I thought it was close and probably preferred the Akito...... but I used the same arm lead with both. Maybe that was a difference maker,motor maybe different ears, maybe even sample variation.
I sold that LVII to Arthur Khoubessarian who modded the heck out of it including carbon fibre arm tube. It was pictured in the Funk Website. The Akito’s current price would’ve got me cussing, but after seeing inside a Urika and finding out it cost £2550 my incredulity can’t be stretched any further! Linn are a cult as far as I’m concerned and all logic on pricing goes out the window.
Did you like the SME3009 Dave? I thought it was utter pants. Again onlynheard it many years ago on traded in decks but it was similarly dismal both times. Not having had one at home recently. I’d be prepared to be proven wrong today though.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 19, 2018 17:06:17 GMT
You’ll, swear I’m making this up but I also compared Akito and LVII. I thought it was close and probably preferred the Akito...... but I used the same arm lead with both. Maybe that was a difference maker,motor maybe different ears, maybe even sample variation. I sold that LVII to Arthur Khoubessarian who modded the heck out of it including carbon fibre arm tube. It was pictured in the Funk Website. The Akito’s current price would’ve got me cussing, but after seeing inside a Urika and finding out it cost £2550 my incredulity can’t be stretched any further! Linn are a cult as far as I’m concerned and all logic on pricing goes out the window. Did you like the SME3009 Dave? I thought it was utter pants. Again onlynheard it many years ago on traded in decks but it was similarly dismal both times. Not having had one at home recently. I’d be prepared to be proven wrong today though. Go and hear some master tapes of LP's you know.. Then come back to me  i don't mean to sound patronising, but it's a good idea to have an idea of what you're trying to do or where to go where vinyl's concerned, although I admit it's all opinion as you'll never get vinyl as good in the bass as well as the top unless it's via a good Decca LOL!
I have here an SME 3009 Improved fixed shell with a new V15 III fitted. Headshell goo fitted too and this makes a hell of a difference to SME shells with sculpted screw-head fixing and separate finger lift (later 3009 Improved models had thicker headshell metal and a flat top with riveted finger lift). I haven't sold it as it was gifted to me with all the Crown and Spendor stuff and believe it or not, I've never actually 'owned' an SME to use regularly at home and wanted to do this. The TD125 has gone sadly, there's a TD160mk2 in the loft and I'm having difficulty bonding with the idea of using it, but funds permitting, I may get 'my' Technics SL150 (with add-on 1500 tonearm) back and fitting the SME to that as the pairing used to work I remember. The SME 'improved' is rather like the Grace 707, lean toned and brightly lit, but I've heard it extensively with the aforesaid V15 III and numerous ADC's which I have huge fondness for and of course, these arms in a second life played host to OM30's/OM40's, 530/540mk2's and so on. The original cables have tiny caps in the phono plugs specifically for Shures and older Ortofons that need it (ADC's didn't bother)..
If you prefer the Akito overall, then brilliant. I liked the liveliness of the Ittok and this was progressively tamed I believe as time went on. the very last ittoks (LV III) had a captive arm rest and Linn claimed these were identical to early Ekos models. I myself wouldn't agree with this at all, the early Ekos to me sounding clanky up-top - and all the bearings clogged up with migrated goo as well i remember. The SME 309 was far better to me, but it's not a Linn product so nothing like as good on an LP12 of course - baaa!
I've bloody gone off on one again - sorry, can't help myself...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 17:16:05 GMT
You’ve had so many opportunities to hear and experience things most (all?) of us haven’t. I doubt I’d ever get near master tape of any recording unless I recorded myself playing the stylophone Seriously, I totally get that such experiences cannot be “unlearned” and I readily accept that if I was fortunate enough to travel back in time and gate-crash your experiences, I would probably have all of most of the same reactions and preferences as you. Your insight into the SME tells me enough to know I’m on no position to pass judgement because I had no hand in the setup on the decks I heard it on. Both were trade ins that we simply plugged in and listened to. I do like the later SMEs and I don’t hear the “mechanical” sound others complain about. Maybe one day I will get to hear a fettled R200 that will change my mind too. I’ve been confounded many times when revisiting products I thought I knew, so it will inevitably happen again. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 19, 2018 17:40:38 GMT
Had you lived near Watford (and later Wignore St W1) in the mid 70's, you'd have heard master tapes all the time - DSOTM, Tubular Bells and Ommadawn (Dolby A to boot), Mandingo (the 'two on one' CD releases copy the memories of the tapes very well - Play the first track of Primeval Rhythm Of Life flat out - it's still good, especially on vintage JBL's - here I bloody go again ) One for Paul D which I think I've already recounted - 'Frankenstein' by the Edgar Winter group, copy master played flat out onto IMF ALS40's one Saturday morning in '75 or so - got a round of applause for that one paul has NEVER heard his Dad's old ASL40's sound this good and sadly, no surviving ones would be as good either... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 18:48:16 GMT
I remember the ALS40. Big fruity bottom end. I thought they were good fun. Never got to hear the smaller ALS30 though.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 18:51:43 GMT
They fall outside my window of experience, as they were just a bit too early for me. Doesn’t stop me being curious about them though.
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I’d agree with the Goldrings sounding good with those arms too. I lack experience of later Rega decks and arms, but I hope one day to catch up with them. 
), but this stays with me cos that's how I always listened as explained many times in the past...
?
I still think the R200 sucks ass big time 
i don't mean to sound patronising, but it's a good idea to have an idea of what you're trying to do or where to go where vinyl's concerned, although I admit it's all opinion as you'll never get vinyl as good in the bass as well as the top unless it's via a good Decca LOL!