Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2022 13:49:08 GMT
Hi all,
My dislike for Rhodium plating has been well documented here, but i don't think i have ever said why.
So here goes.
Why is Rhodium used?
Rhodium is one of the lesser conductive metals in our hobby. Silver, Gold & copper are all far higher in conductivity, however, Rhodium does not scratch easily. It doesn't tarnish, it remains shiny for far longer than Gold or Silver, and it doesn't require as much material for plating as silver or copper. Hence manufacturers loving the stuff. It's blingy and audiophiles are like moths to a flame! lol
Ok, so whats wrong with Rhodium?
First up, lets have a look at the IACS conductivity table.
Silver - 106%
Copper - 100%
Gold - 76%
Rhodium - 39%
Nickel - 24%
As you can see, the performance level of the metal is absolutely not aimed at signal transfer. It is only marginally better than Nickel, and i'd bet 90% of audiophiles would turn their nose up at Nickel as a material from the bygone early days of HiFI!
The process of plating copper (base metal) with Rhodium, is one that causes even more concern. The process for plating Copper is as follows:
1. Plate the Copper with NICKEL
2. Then Plate with Silver
3. Then plate with Rhodium
Does this matter?
Well, that depends on who you ask. Some will say that the contact area size is far more important than the material used. Others will say that the solder you are using is even lower on the IACs table than the plating material. Then there is me....who wonders why there is any need for it at all.
So, whats the answer to a problem that most audiophiles don't give a rats ass about?
Direct 10micron gold plating to pure copper. For me, these have been the best (to my ears). Even recently when i picked up a set of Viborg RCA sockets thinking they were direct plated, they just didn't sound right. Looked into them and there it was, Nickel, then silver, then gold.
If this has no bearing on your mind and you like what Rhodium does, then i recommend you carry on as you were. I am not trying to convince anyone, just explain why I don't use rhodium plated goods.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 26, 2022 14:05:43 GMT
Hi all, My dislike for Rhodium plating has been well documented here, but i don't think i have ever said why. So here goes. Why is Rhodium used? Rhodium is one of the less conductive metals in our hobby. Silver, Gold & copper are all far higher in conductivity, however, Rhodium does not scratch easily. It doesn't tarnish, it remains shiny for far longer than Gold or Silver, and it doesn't require as much material for plating as silver or copper. Ok, so whats wrong with Rhodium? First up, lets have a look at the IACS conductivity table. Silver - 106% Copper - 100% Gold - 76% Rhodium - 39%Nickel - 24% I wonder what studies (if any) have been done into the audible relationship between conductivity and sound. (Obviously something with very poor conductivity is going to be bad). It seems that many (myself included by the way) are assuming that higher conductivity equals better sound (and technically that should be true) but maybe that's only one part of the equation. A lot of people seem to commend rhodium for 'clean and neutral' presentation qualities, therefore sticking some in to a system which is already well balanced could well upset the balance in a direction more towards the harsh and shrill. I reckon it's all about achieving the right 'balance' in your system. If you have a slightly warm/veiled sound then perhaps the addition of some rhodium could help to restore the balance as it seems to be commonly recognised to extenuate highs although often to the point of almost sounding harsh. It also seems to add some bass impact by some accounts . . . . . hmmmm |
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Post by antonio on Jan 26, 2022 14:18:37 GMT
Thanks for starting this thread Bigman, I was only joking before, I knew rhodium was well down the conductivity charts  I am a little confused about conductivity though, does this mean the signal passes through more slowly or does it mean some of the signal is lost? Opty has asked the right question, has any research been done and if so what were the results. I have to say, I cannot remember reading anything about the sound characteristics of rhodium, silver maybe brighter, not so sure about that though, and gold warmer, let's see what others think. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2022 14:20:23 GMT
Thanks for starting this thread Bigman, I was only joking before, I knew rhodium was well down the conductivity charts I am a little confused about conductivity though, does this mean the signal passes through more slowly or does it mean some of the signal is lost? Opty has asked the right question, has any research been done and if so what were the results. I have to say, I cannot remember reading anything about the sound characteristics of rhodium, silver maybe brighter, not so sure about that though, and gold warmer, let's see what others think. Apparently, things like the hardness of the material can also have a significant impact. Density, grain, purity, too. There is a lot at play from what i have read. Rhodium however, just has no place in HiFi, like SMPS lol |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2022 14:26:37 GMT
Hi all, My dislike for Rhodium plating has been well documented here, but i don't think i have ever said why. So here goes. Why is Rhodium used? Rhodium is one of the less conductive metals in our hobby. Silver, Gold & copper are all far higher in conductivity, however, Rhodium does not scratch easily. It doesn't tarnish, it remains shiny for far longer than Gold or Silver, and it doesn't require as much material for plating as silver or copper. Ok, so whats wrong with Rhodium? First up, lets have a look at the IACS conductivity table. Silver - 106% Copper - 100% Gold - 76% Rhodium - 39%Nickel - 24% I wonder what studies (if any) have been done into the audible relationship between conductivity and sound. (Obviously something with very poor conductivity is going to be bad). It seems that many (myself included by the way) are assuming that higher conductivity equals better sound (and technically that should be true) but maybe that's only one part of the equation. A lot of people seem to commend rhodium for 'clean and neutral' presentation qualities, therefore sticking some in to a system which is already well balanced could well upset the balance in a direction more towards the harsh and shrill. I reckon it's all about achieving the right 'balance' in your system. If you have a slightly warm/veiled sound then perhaps the addition of some rhodium could help to restore the balance as it seems to be commonly recognised to extenuate highs although often to the point of almost sounding harsh. It also seems to add some bass impact by some accounts . . . . . hmmmm I can't find it at the minute, but someone did measure distortion on a Rhodium plated RCA connection. It was at the leading edge and he too said "there is attenuation of the Lower frequencies" or something very similar. As i said, i am not remoteley interested in telling anyone else what to do. If these things work in your system, then leave them where they are! lol |
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 26, 2022 14:37:25 GMT
I wonder what studies (if any) have been done into the audible relationship between conductivity and sound. (Obviously something with very poor conductivity is going to be bad). It seems that many (myself included by the way) are assuming that higher conductivity equals better sound (and technically that should be true) but maybe that's only one part of the equation. A lot of people seem to commend rhodium for 'clean and neutral' presentation qualities, therefore sticking some in to a system which is already well balanced could well upset the balance in a direction more towards the harsh and shrill. I reckon it's all about achieving the right 'balance' in your system. If you have a slightly warm/veiled sound then perhaps the addition of some rhodium could help to restore the balance as it seems to be commonly recognised to extenuate highs although often to the point of almost sounding harsh. It also seems to add some bass impact by some accounts . . . . . hmmmm I can't find it at the minute, but someone did measure distortion on a Rhodium plated RCA connection. It was at the leading edge and he too said "there is attenuation of the Lower frequencies" or something very similar. As i said, i am not remoteley interested in telling anyone else what to do. If these things work in your system, then leave them where they are! lol Years ago I had a 2 input 1 output selector switch to add an input to a single input amplifier. The RCA's were rhodium (probably just plated), the bass definition with this selector switch in place was more audible, didn't notice anything else sounding particularly better or worse, just the bass was better . . . . Tallies with those findings. Although my general system resolution and overall quality was a long way off from where it is now so may have been more a 'band aid' tweak which sounded nice within the confides of an average system. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2022 15:22:47 GMT
I can't find it at the minute, but someone did measure distortion on a Rhodium plated RCA connection. It was at the leading edge and he too said "there is attenuation of the Lower frequencies" or something very similar. As i said, i am not remoteley interested in telling anyone else what to do. If these things work in your system, then leave them where they are! lol Years ago I had a 2 input 1 output selector switch to add an input to a single input amplifier. The RCA's were rhodium (probably just plated), the bass definition with this selector switch in place was more audible, didn't notice anything else sounding particularly better or worse, just the bass was better . . . . Tallies with those findings. Although my general system resolution and overall quality was a long way off from where it is now so may have been more a 'band aid' tweak which sounded nice within the confides of an average system. You won't get Rhodium RCAs, it's too brittle. Everything Rhodium is plated. I would imagine that experience would be a lot different now. Your system has come on leaps and bounds recently |
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Post by iceman16 on Jan 26, 2022 16:03:39 GMT
IME it’s about system balance. I use both gold plated and rhodium (ncf)plated UK mains plugs(Furutech). I prefer the gold plated plugs on my digital components like dac/cdp/streamer. But for my amp/lpsu/mains conditioner I prefer the rhodium (ncf) plated plugs. YMMV😀
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 26, 2022 16:09:48 GMT
I don't bother with plugs anymore. I found shoving the speaker cables directly into my ears improved the sound no end. 😜
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2022 16:25:00 GMT
I don't bother with plugs anymore. I found shoving the speaker cables directly into my ears improved the sound no end. 😜 wax dielectric....interesting lol |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2022 16:25:42 GMT
IME it’s about system balance. I use both gold plated and rhodium (ncf)plated UK mains plugs(Furutech). I prefer the gold plated plugs on my digital components like dac/cdp/streamer. But for my amp/lpsu/mains conditioner I prefer the rhodium (ncf) plated plugs. YMMV😀 No definitive rights or wrongs, Jayson. Personal preferance must always be obeyed! |
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Post by robbiegong on Jan 26, 2022 17:01:09 GMT
IME it’s about system balance. I use both gold plated and rhodium (ncf)plated UK mains plugs(Furutech). I prefer the gold plated plugs on my digital components like dac/cdp/streamer. But for my amp/lpsu/mains conditioner I prefer the rhodium (ncf) plated plugs. YMMV😀 Yep, Jayson is spot on here. They all impart a flavour to the sound to some degree and that's what it's about at the end of the day for us and our lugs - sound. Any one of these elements overly applied throughout a system/set-up can potential upset the balance, so too warm, too dynamic, too bright, lean etc etc, depending on which one you are overdoing it and swearing by. Indeed Jayson, I've read guys swearing by one element but then adding a rhodium component somewhere and being very happy with the result, that 'thing' it added to the presentation - yep system balance .... |
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Post by misterc on Jan 26, 2022 17:59:59 GMT
Rhodium is the dual spawn of the devil, I have lost could on how many customers have spalshed out on this only to regret it very quickly afterwards, it just highly wear resistance and expensive will never ever been seen on or used in Coherent Cables.
I would rather listen to a naim/chord system than use Rhodium in our cables
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 26, 2022 18:13:57 GMT
Quoting iacs is meaningless, its the resistant that the connection add that matters.
Say your copper plug adds 0.1mOhm, then one made of pure solder would add about 0.35mOhm. Which in the big scheme of things is utterly inconsequential. Certainly between anything running at line level or higher. I wouldn't put 20 plug socket interfaces between my cart and the input of my phonostage, bur I'd be quite happy with coat hanger anywhere else.
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Post by misterc on Jan 26, 2022 18:23:22 GMT
The sort of companies who would use Rhodium are the sort of guys who would stick breadcrumbs to a window and watch pigeons batter themselves to death Or force people to listen to naim without ear defenders for hours on end, like waterboarding but worse.
This is purely an impedance issue easy to see from 0-20Khz (and beyond)
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Post by pete on Jan 26, 2022 18:29:51 GMT
The sort of companies who would use Rhodium are the sort of guys who would stick breadcrumbs to a window and watch pigeons batter themselves to death Or force people to listen to naim without ear defenders for hours on end, like waterboarding but worse. This is purely an impedance issue easy to see from 0-20Khz (and beyond) So isn't it true that Naim are using it in some of their 'higher end' components?? I only say with a tiny bit of my tongue in cheek, while listening to some Naim amplifiers!!... but probably, not for much longer |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2022 18:32:34 GMT
Quoting iacs is meaningless, its the resistant that the connection add that matters. Say your copper plug adds 0.1mOhm, then one made of pure solder would add about 0.35mOhm. Which in the big scheme of things is utterly inconsequential. Certainly between anything running at line level or higher. I wouldn't put 20 plug socket interfaces between my cart and the input of my phonostage, bur I'd be quite happy with coat hanger anywhere else. Would the coat hangers be Rhodium plated?  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2022 18:36:30 GMT
The sort of companies who would use Rhodium are the sort of guys who would stick breadcrumbs to a window and watch pigeons batter themselves to death Or force people to listen to naim without ear defenders for hours on end, like waterboarding but worse. This is purely an impedance issue easy to see from 0-20Khz (and beyond) So isn't it true that Naim are using it in some of their 'higher end' components?? I only say with a tiny bit of my tongue in cheek, while listening to some Naim amplifiers!!... but probably, not for much longerHa! i know why  |
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Post by pete on Jan 26, 2022 18:40:48 GMT
So isn't it true that Naim are using it in some of their 'higher end' components?? I only say with a tiny bit of my tongue in cheek, while listening to some Naim amplifiers!!... but probably, not for much longerHa! i know why  No Rhodium where I am going  |
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 26, 2022 18:42:17 GMT
Rhodium is the dual spawn of the devil, I have lost could on how many customers have spalshed out on this only to regret it very quickly afterwards, it just highly wear resistance and expensive will never ever been seen on or used in Coherent Cables. I would rather listen to a naim/chord system than use Rhodium in our cables Does it fall foul of the same criticisms within power sections Tony? IE power cables and sockets/inlets etc. |
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Post by misterc on Jan 26, 2022 18:52:49 GMT
Rhodium is the dual spawn of the devil, I have lost could on how many customers have spalshed out on this only to regret it very quickly afterwards, it just highly wear resistance and expensive will never ever been seen on or used in Coherent Cables. I would rather listen to a naim/chord system than use Rhodium in our cables Does it fall foul of the same criticisms within power sections Tony? IE power cables and sockets/inlets etc. I have a box full of Rhodium IEC's and mains plugs but you may find it different
In fact a new low in audio recently a T+A two box intergated Russel K speakers and a Aurlic steamer 'It were that bright I needed a welding mask!
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Post by antonio on Jan 27, 2022 1:15:58 GMT
So you think rhodium 'brightens' a system Tony, not what previous comments adhered to.
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Post by misterc on Jan 27, 2022 10:12:22 GMT
So you think rhodium 'brightens' a system Tony, not what previous comments adhered to. Morning Dave
The previous post in relation to the new low in sound quality wasn't related to the Rhodium question just merely a new low that had caught my attention recently by being so grim, it was like stepping back to the late 80's just with more power 
Rhodium without question has a very specific 'taint' on the sound, easy to idenify even a non trained asr rabbit dog could pick this out at 6 feet.
Its not just a question of being distintive in the terble, it just leaves a very 'Etched' sound and in a lot of cases could be discribed as 'hard'
Now we have had cleints who have travelled down this route in the past and in theor particular instant has made their system take a step up. I will qualify that, the chaps I have delt with that have previous had Rhodium with these cases all had what I would discribe as the BBC sound speakers, Harbeth's / Graham's /De Capo's/ Prozac's which are well know for the mid band vocal qualities.
When the chaps have upgraded their amps and or sources (both TT and digital) the obviousiness became far more apprant. With one gent, to demonstrate I actually put a stock kettle lead back in the system and a sense of calm and ease returned just without the stupidly obvious upper freqency 'mis appropreation'
We have built many cables whch are totally indentical LCR's and had identical connectors jut Rhodium plated to 6 micron with the same care and atetion that we give to our usual Coherent Products and the difference is FOOKING obvious, the same goes for commerically available products
Even the most hard core anti snake oil ASR/Simon/Macca DNA fusion could tell the difference blindfolded in a darkened room after 12 pints of tumbleweed extra strong Rhino felling ale.
Rhodium best left audiofools and applications where it need to mated large number of times in harsh enviroments
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Post by antonio on Jan 27, 2022 12:40:34 GMT
Thank you MisterC, don't think we've ever had any rhodium plated stuff, my brother will correct me if I'm wrong No one has answered my question from a previous post about conductivity  With lower specified materials, ie rhodium, do you lose any of the signal or does the signal just pass through more slowly than say silver? |
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 27, 2022 13:12:57 GMT
I bet I couldn't.
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Post by misterc on Jan 27, 2022 14:17:43 GMT
I bet you absolutely could even with a tower of iron will Simon it's particularly distintive no question |
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Post by antonio on Jan 27, 2022 14:35:30 GMT
Thank you MisterC, don't think we've ever had any rhodium plated stuff, my brother will correct me if I'm wrong  No one has answered my question from a previous post about conductivity  With lower specified materials, ie rhodium, do you lose any of the signal or does the signal just pass through more slowly than say silver? I've been told the Humboldt has Furutech rhodium plated RCA inputs and mains connector |
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Post by misterc on Jan 27, 2022 15:01:09 GMT
Thank you MisterC, don't think we've ever had any rhodium plated stuff, my brother will correct me if I'm wrong No one has answered my question from a previous post about conductivity With lower specified materials, ie rhodium, do you lose any of the signal or does the signal just pass through more slowly than say silver? I've been told the Humboldt has Furutech rhodium plated RCA inputs and mains connector  I wasn't going to mention that, however Esoteric also have Rhodium on some of their models as well
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Post by antonio on Jan 27, 2022 16:11:00 GMT
Maybe Esoteric and Audionet have not looked into rhodium and trusted Furutech to know what's best.
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 27, 2022 16:35:20 GMT
I bet you absolutely could even with a tower of iron will Simon it's particularly distintive no question Given that I've not heard a difference in any cables I've used in over a decade I really do doubt that. If its audible, its measurable. Go on have a go.... |
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I am a little confused about conductivity though, does this mean the signal passes through more slowly or does it mean some of the signal is lost? Opty has asked the right question, has any research been done and if so what were the results. I have to say, I cannot remember reading anything about the sound characteristics of rhodium, silver maybe brighter, not so sure about that though, and gold warmer, let's see what others think.
With lower specified materials, ie rhodium, do you lose any of the signal or does the signal just pass through more slowly than say silver?
With lower specified materials, ie rhodium, do you lose any of the signal or does the signal just pass through more slowly than say silver?