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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 9:11:09 GMT
Post by misterc on Dec 30, 2021 9:11:09 GMT
I have my albums on server so I can select my music no problem, the issue with have so many CD's and just have a rotation of say 50 is bit restrictive for myself, so I have instant access to my music when i want it. I could not go back to CD 's now only for demo's (BTW I have been using FBA snce 2006!) Getting up off your (fat) arse, is a pain in the bum to change cd's nowadays, when you have instant access on a remote/iphone/i-pad to all the music you need with a server. Who of you wants to go back to tv's without a remote control? Dave,
To much pop last night?
WTF should I use cd an inferior medium?
I have totall acess to all music via pad, which is the point I was making, maybe the single Malts caught up with you
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 9:19:51 GMT
Post by macca on Dec 30, 2021 9:19:51 GMT
What is CD inferior to? Is there some new format now that is even better than the master recording?
please don't say 'Hi rez'
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 11:01:43 GMT
Post by misterc on Dec 30, 2021 11:01:43 GMT
The red book files used to make the CD's (44.1Khz) easily superior happy to demo with matched volume, no CRC as used in CD reply. CD is not bit perfect, no conversion from light <> electrical to perform every time you listen.
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 11:25:37 GMT
Post by macca on Dec 30, 2021 11:25:37 GMT
bit perfect doesn't matter since the waveform is still reconstructed perfectly or it will drop out or glitch.
I agree that the fact that this does happen very occasionally does make the file superior in that respect. But there is no physical way that sound quality can be better.
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 12:59:30 GMT
Post by misterc on Dec 30, 2021 12:59:30 GMT
Sorry Martin absolutely do not agree.
The issue is in the obtianing of the data with Turntables you are dragging a rock around apiece of plastic with CD you are shinning a light on a spinning disc.
One of the demo's we perfer is this, customer brings CD to play on quality player, then we rip said CD on to FBA player level match and playback using the same dac/cables and level match no brainer.
Next we play the ORIGINAL red book master and compare to the rip not subtle at all, been doing this for many years.
I have far to many CD's 13K but do I play them anymore only for customer demo's all seriousness Martin, would I really have bothered to copy the music to files for just ease of use when I am squarely an SQ guy?
Have decent world class cd drives which I do not use as the file payback is CLEARLY superior no question, that is not to say either the Esoteric or Wadia deliver average sound thewy do not in any way, but make no mistake they do not match FBA
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 13:32:58 GMT
Post by macca on Dec 30, 2021 13:32:58 GMT
I'm an SQ guy too if this clearly superior sound is possible don't you think I would have it or at least have experienced it?
Had a demo of a ten grand CAD server system - yes it sounded good but it wasn't any revelation to me or I would have walked out with it.
been in studios where you don't get any closer to 'what it really sounds like' and CD will do that just fine.
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 13:34:44 GMT
via mobile
macca likes this
Post by sq225917 on Dec 30, 2021 13:34:44 GMT
Why not just play the digital out from a cd transport into the same dac as the file. No futzin about, no level matching needed.
The idea that you need a high end file based system is just nonsense. With a dac that's input agnostic it makes no difference.
That's why no fancy file server company ever shows the measurements out the back of the dac, because they're no different to 40 quids worth of pi.
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 13:51:29 GMT
Post by macca on Dec 30, 2021 13:51:29 GMT
Just listening to 'Physical Graffiti'
My original copy of this was taped from a mate's LP on my Tensai turntable to a bottom of the range JVC deck using an old BASF tape that had been a talking book for the blind.
Some years later I got a s/h o/p LP which was played back on Systemdek IIXE / Linn Basik Plus/ Nagoaka MP30 - that was a big improvement from the tape. Not subtle
Now have the CD (1990s remaster) that again is better than the LP but the difference this time is subtle.
I'd love to think that this could be improved on again, not just subtly better but 'clearly superior'. I'd go for that in a second. I'd go for just subtly better in a second if that existed. But it just ain't so.
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 18:25:23 GMT
Post by misterc on Dec 30, 2021 18:25:23 GMT
Well I will be happy to demonstrate NO problem at all when we have the meet up will bring along the Eso P-2 and the unit I use here all the same cables and dacs. The Innous reference is ok, but you honestly do not need to spend that much for most folk. Most of them are pretty boring and all cloying hifi or like early CD's bright as a bunch of Ph.d boys discussing the third quantum state! (Jerry help me out here!) At the moment I have just finished a rather nice Eso player repair and its cracking player top notch, just tested in the system and even though its 12 years old its still pretty decent no question. But it a long way off why I normally use, which in real terms was under the third of the cost of the Esoteric. But its still a cracking player.
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 20:16:00 GMT
Post by brucew268 on Dec 30, 2021 20:16:00 GMT
The Innous reference is ok, but you honestly do not need to spend that much for most folk.
Are you saying that there are streamer/digital players as good or better than the Innuos Zen for less outlay? What ones would you recommend for consideration? Or are you talking about competition to the higher Innuos Zenith models such as the Statement at £11k+ ?
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 30, 2021 20:19:54 GMT
Nah he means £40 on a rpi.
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Innuos
Dec 30, 2021 23:51:51 GMT
Post by antonio on Dec 30, 2021 23:51:51 GMT
Getting up off your (fat) arse, is a pain in the bum to change cd's nowadays, when you have instant access on a remote/iphone/i-pad to all the music you need with a server. Who of you wants to go back to tv's without a remote control? Dave,
To much pop last night?
WTF should I use cd an inferior medium?
I have totall acess to all music via pad, which is the point I was making, maybe the single Malts caught up with you Re-read my post Tony, I am saying changing cd's is a pain in the bum, when you have instant access to all the music you need with a server, finishing my post with "do you want to go back to the days of tv's with no remote control" So the answer to your question, no I did not drink too much 'pop' last night
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Post by misterc on Dec 31, 2021 0:25:50 GMT
PI LOL next you be telling me a PIAES is a top draw player, for a starting point is good but let's not delude ourselves please
The statement zen is no better or worse than the Grim MU1 and thankfully not just USB outputs
Bruce you are capable of building a streaming bridge that can happily match expensive cd transports with a bit nouce and some selective bits which you are capable of doing.
Happy to show you just pm me
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 9:20:29 GMT
Post by macca on Dec 31, 2021 9:20:29 GMT
Dave,
To much pop last night?
WTF should I use cd an inferior medium?
I have totall acess to all music via pad, which is the point I was making, maybe the single Malts caught up with you Re-read my post Tony, I am saying changing cd's is a pain in the bum, when you have instant access to all the music you need with a server, finishing my post with "do you want to go back to the days of tv's with no remote control" So the answer to your question, no I did not drink too much 'pop' last night I'm old fashioned though so I put an album on and listen to the whole thing. I don't find walking ten feet to the player and changing the disc once every 50 minutes to be a pain. It's half the trips I had to make with vinyl. As for the rest of the debate re streamers, CD players, transports, I think this is another case of listening to the price tag instead of the actual sound. Do some blind comparisons and the differences will evaporate like the morning dew. Many don't want to admit it but digital sound is like the Colt Peacemaker, it made all men equal, at least in source components. Was reading an old Hi-Fi News from 1984 the other day where they blind test about six CD players. No-one could tell a difference between top of the line Sony ES and any of the others except for a Carver which had a button that boosted bass and shelved off the top end. When that wasn't engaged it was identical to the others.
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 10:23:00 GMT
Post by antonio on Dec 31, 2021 10:23:00 GMT
My brother's dCS Rossini dac/streamer incorporates a cd transport and I've read some prefer cd and some the streamer, we can't really tell any difference when listening to a well recorded cd or digital file so that says it all Macca. I do think there is a difference with different cd transports, so I will assume there is also a difference with streamers, I haven't heard many direct streamer comparisons, but given the same type of price points I don't think there would be much in it between the two. I was 'exaggerating' a little about getting up and changing the cd.
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 10:33:45 GMT
Post by brucew268 on Dec 31, 2021 10:33:45 GMT
Re-read my post Tony, I am saying changing cd's is a pain in the bum, when you have instant access to all the music you need with a server, finishing my post with "do you want to go back to the days of tv's with no remote control" I'm old fashioned though so I put an album on and listen to the whole thing. I don't find walking ten feet to the player and changing the disc once every 50 minutes to be a pain. It's half the trips I had to make with vinyl. The annoying bit for me is getting up every couple songs to change the volume because they didn't volume match across the album well enough! So CD transport, no biggie, remote volume control on the pre, somewhat big.
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Post by gninnam on Dec 31, 2021 10:46:42 GMT
We all hear things differently - fact. One mans meat is another mans poison. I love the sound of my records, love the sound of my CD's, love the sound of my digital files/streams through my PI and love the sound of my tapes. Why does everyone have to agree that this is the best or that is the best. Just bloody enjoy what you are listening too and if you don't then replace it!!
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 11:13:42 GMT
Post by brucew268 on Dec 31, 2021 11:13:42 GMT
PI LOL next you be telling me a PIAES is a top draw player, for a starting point is good but let's not delude ourselves please The statement zen is no better or worse than the Grim MU1 and thankfully not just USB outputs Bruce you are capable of building a streaming bridge that can happily match expensive cd transports with a bit nonce and some selective bits which you are capable of doing. Happy to show you just pm me Yes, but could I build it for £1500? PSU's and ethernet & spdif cards with proper clocks would exceed that alone without the actual computer. I'm never going to be in the Statement/Grim club or even 1/3 of that.
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 11:18:19 GMT
Post by macca on Dec 31, 2021 11:18:19 GMT
I'm old fashioned though so I put an album on and listen to the whole thing. I don't find walking ten feet to the player and changing the disc once every 50 minutes to be a pain. It's half the trips I had to make with vinyl. The annoying bit for me is getting up every couple songs to change the volume because they didn't volume match across the album well enough! So CD transport, no biggie, remote volume control on the pre, somewhat big. The odd occasion I have had remote control of volume I have revelled in the luxury of it. I still didn't use it that much but it's probably better to have it and not need it. Sometimes I do turn it up mid-album if I am really getting into it. And some stuff has to be played at high levels to work - Oasis albums for example. Was listening to 'Definitely Maybe' yesterday and had to get up twice to turn it up before I was satisfied with the levels. I don't have many albums where the level varies that much with each song except for a couple of 'Best Of' albums.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 11:24:18 GMT
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 31, 2021 11:24:18 GMT
PI LOL next you be telling me a PIAES is a top draw player, for a starting point is good but let's not delude ourselves please The statement zen is no better or worse than the Grim MU1 and thankfully not just USB outputs Bruce you are capable of building a streaming bridge that can happily match expensive cd transports with a bit of nonce and some selective bits which you are capable of doing. Happy to show you just pm me I'd hope that you don't require a "Nonce" to build a decent streaming bridge? For those who don't know, "Nonce" (UK) Slang for paedophile. "That Gary Glitter bloke, he's a right nonce."
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Post by karma67 on Dec 31, 2021 11:28:41 GMT
didnt he do 2 little boys? oh wait that was rolf harris
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 11:32:56 GMT
Post by macca on Dec 31, 2021 11:32:56 GMT
We all hear things differently - fact. One mans meat is another mans poison. I love the sound of my records, love the sound of my CD's, love the sound of my digital files/streams through my PI and love the sound of my tapes. Why does everyone have to agree that this is the best or that is the best. Just bloody enjoy what you are listening too and if you don't then replace it!! Is it a fact though? When we don't know what bit of kit we are listening to a lot of our weird prejudices about what's good and what isn't often disappear. Often differences of opinion about what is good vary due to context. I think speaker A is crap, you love it. How does that work? Possibly because you were using an amp that could drive them properly and I wasn't. Or your room is better acoustically, or its acoustics suits the speakers. Maybe you think amp A is crap and I love it. But amp A cannot drive your speakers but with my speakers it has an easy time. I once thought I heard new speaker cable improve as it 'burnt in'. Turned out that it was a dodgy crossover connection in both speakers. Lots of variables in this game but we like to over-simplify and ignore them. The magazines and salesmen got us into that state of mind, forums perpetuate it. Mostly.
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 11:47:37 GMT
Post by gninnam on Dec 31, 2021 11:47:37 GMT
Of course it is a fact. If it isn't a fact, why as I get older does my hearing change - I do not hear the same information as my son who is 30 years my junior. You may be able to hear something at 12Khz while mine is limited to 10Khz so we will hear what is coming out of the same equipment differently.
I have been to many bakeoffs where people are saying this sounds great yet I was nonplussed with what I heard - does not make them wrong as to them it probably was the best thing they had heard.
Nothing to do with source, cables, amps or speakers - it is down to how you are built and we are all built differently (physically and mentally)
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 11:49:41 GMT
Post by antonio on Dec 31, 2021 11:49:41 GMT
PI LOL next you be telling me a PIAES is a top draw player, for a starting point is good but let's not delude ourselves please The statement zen is no better or worse than the Grim MU1 and thankfully not just USB outputs Bruce you are capable of building a streaming bridge that can happily match expensive cd transports with a bit of nonce and some selective bits which you are capable of doing. Happy to show you just pm me I'd hope that you don't require a "Nonce" to build a decent streaming bridge? For those who don't know, "Nonce" (UK) Slang for paedophile. "That Gary Glitter bloke, he's a right nonce." He was up to no good in Cambodia.
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Post by misterc on Dec 31, 2021 12:10:14 GMT
Right oopps sorry it was menat to nouce applogies!
No Bruce 1500 should cover it nicely, what do you think is inside the Grimm apart from an off the shelf smps, mini NUC and a baisc output board for various formats?, Coding and the software upsampler, off thew shelf items available. The Zen has a Shaun Jacobs psu thats all.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 31, 2021 12:10:53 GMT
I'd hope that you don't require a "Nonce" to build a decent streaming bridge? For those who don't know, "Nonce" (UK) Slang for paedophile. "That Gary Glitter bloke, he's a right nonce." He was up to no good in Cambodia. Disgusting creature.....him. Anyway, the typo made me laugh
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Innuos
Dec 31, 2021 13:10:57 GMT
Post by macca on Dec 31, 2021 13:10:57 GMT
Of course it is a fact. If it isn't a fact, why as I get older does my hearing change - I do not hear the same information as my son who is 30 years my junior. You may be able to hear something at 12Khz while mine is limited to 10Khz so we will hear what is coming out of the same equipment differently. I have been to many bakeoffs where people are saying this sounds great yet I was nonplussed with what I heard - does not make them wrong as to them it probably was the best thing they had heard. Nothing to do with source, cables, amps or speakers - it is down to how you are built and we are all built differently (physically and mentally) I wouldn't worry too much about the hearing loss, nothing much happens musically over 10Khz anyway. A bit of 'air' that's it. Otherwise how do people live with and even rave about single driver speakers? Yes I've also had the same experience at bake-offs and shows. I think there's some people where there's just no hope for them Harmon did a lot of blind preference testing with speakers using trained listeners, enthusiasts, hi-fi dealers and people they dragged in off the street aka 'civilians'. When people could see the speaker they were listening to preference was all over the place. But when they didn't know which speaker they were listening to about 75% of people from all categories' preferred the same speaker. So seeing the speaker and what it looked like, the brand name, the price etc made a difference to how they perceived its sound. Obviously one in four people were still 'outliers' but you can extrapolate from this to say that most of us do 'hear the same' or at least prefer the same presentation.
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Post by awkwardbydesign on Apr 1, 2022 17:10:31 GMT
Was reading an old Hi-Fi News from 1984 the other day where they blind test about six CD players. No-one could tell a difference between top of the line Sony ES and any of the others except for a Carver which had a button that boosted bass and shelved off the top end. When that wasn't engaged it was identical to the others. Only just come here, but when motion pictures were new (like CDs in 1984), audiences thought the (black and white!) train coming towards them was really going to run them over. And in the early days of gramophone records audiences couldn't hear a difference between a live singer and a 78rpm record, both behind a curtain. Similarly GA Briggs with Wharfedale speakers versus a live singer in the 50s (?).
The point being, without a comparison context, we can't tell real from fake. Like CGI; the stuff from only a very few years ago now looks fake, but at the time it didn't. My grandson, who is studying film, can instantly spot CGI, where I (who doesn't watch much film, or play games) can't. So being unable to hear differences between CD players in 1984 doesn't really mean much. BTW, I use an Innuos Zenith 2, mainly because it is so convenient. But I listen to whole albums, as I do with CDs or LPs.
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