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Post by macca on Nov 1, 2021 17:52:22 GMT
No I've not heard an RME but you know that I think differences in DACs are wildly exaggerated and any minor artifices that may exist will be swamped by the major artifices present in all speakers and rooms.
Speaker wise I think he'd need to go quite a bit further than that Heco for a worthwhile upgrade (rather than just different), I would not under-estimate the Triangle speakers he already has.
Trouble is good speakers tend to get a bit spendy after that level even second-hand. But to me that's all the more reason not to squander limited funds elsewhere.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 1, 2021 18:06:46 GMT
No I've not heard an RME but you know that I think differences in DACs are wildly exaggerated and any minor artifices that may exist will be swamped by the major artifices present in all speakers and rooms. Speaker wise I think he'd need to go quite a bit further than that Heco for a worthwhile upgrade (rather than just different), I would not under-estimate the Triangle speakers he already has. Trouble is good speakers tend to get a bit spendy after that level even second-hand. But to me that's all the more reason not to squander limited funds elsewhere. I do know. I'm not underestimating his Triangle speakers. In fact, I don't know which model they are lol
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Post by misterc on Nov 1, 2021 18:39:58 GMT
Ok, the RME will bore the bollox of a charging rhino at 60 paces I can conclude that wearing a blindfold listening to a rough as a badgers arse compressed copy of Californifcation by the RHCP's on any of the speakers I have here level matched by the same token a BM dac 3 will approach the same prespective from a slightly different angle. The Soekris will have that effect nore will the Venus II or Spring 3 or wavelight Rocknna, none of which i sell Martin. Triangles can be forward and a bit bright, but they are efficent imho good valves suit them better as good as the your amp is it would deliver better performance with other speakers. But the conversation is dac's
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Post by macca on Nov 1, 2021 19:23:22 GMT
Tony - what, from a technical point of view, would make a DAC sound 'boring'?
I can see that if the FR had a roll off from quite low down, or if there was so much noise detail starts getting obscured and it all gets a bit bland, but the RME has none of those issues. I can't think of anything else.
So what am I missing?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2021 19:38:44 GMT
So the 2541 gets your approval? Apparently it fixes in issue with the 1421 and 1521 which are “thin” sounding. The cost to upgrade is acceptable, as it should be easy to sell the RME for what I paid for it. 1421 thin sounding? Not in my opinion, but I'm Intrigued. Where did you read that? SuperBestAudioFriends
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 1, 2021 19:40:37 GMT
1421 thin sounding? Not in my opinion, but I'm Intrigued. Where did you read that? SuperBestAudioFriends Oh no, not a forum I place any value on I'm afraid. They are Schiit mad over there. I am not.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2021 19:43:45 GMT
Apart from when you wanted some help on the 1421?
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Post by misterc on Nov 1, 2021 19:47:08 GMT
Martin
I can list at least 6 boring dacs off the top of my head from £600 to £40K, looking at the meas shows they are measure very well, good linearity virutally indentically flat 20=20Khz response whats not to like given the aspect of music and sound reproduction. The same can be said for a lot of amps, are we looking at some form of mild distortion or time reproduction phase anomaly? dacs especially, honestly they could be a myiad of reasons. I do not have enough stored data to runa cross refernce of parameters to see if there are underlying corrilations.
However it is quite genuinally obvious when its a matter fo fact sounding piece of equipment, at the moment currently I have one piece of equipment in my development system that is making it sound like a pair of class 'a' powered Harbeths's not even Meridian amps have done that before? So why is this having such an effect, again measuring reveals its in the top 1% of 'desired' traits and must have SINAD and FFT ultra low noise floor and minute harmonic spurri. Howver its actually worse tha having 3 does of Mogadon injected directly into your eyeballs.
Blowed if know at the moment
But Inhad a very interesting conversation with a very wel regarded electronics professor a week or so back suggesting that analogue can have jitter as in analogue jitter especially within amps, I must admmit I was trying to solder a soic 16 package in at the time, but I will re ask the question
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 1, 2021 20:08:59 GMT
Apart from when you wanted some help on the 1421? Yes, a brief membership because I'd been told that he answers messages on there. He did and he was f#cking useless. HOWEVER: His DACs are good, the price is good and I feel that they are worth recommendation.
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Post by macca on Nov 1, 2021 20:18:20 GMT
Martin I can list at least 6 boring dacs off the top of my head from £600 to £40K, looking at the meas shows they are measure very well, good linearity virutally indentically flat 20=20Khz response whats not to like given the aspect of music and sound reproduction. The same can be said for a lot of amps, are we looking at some form of mild distortion or time reproduction phase anomaly? dacs especially, honestly they could be a myiad of reasons. I do not have enough stored data to runa cross refernce of parameters to see if there are underlying corrilations. However it is quite genuinally obvious when its a matter fo fact sounding piece of equipment, at the moment currently I ahve one piece fo equipment in my development system tat is making it sound like a pair of class 'a' powered Harbeths's not even Meridian amps have done that before?// so why is this having such an effect, again measuring reveals its in the top 1% of 'desired' traits and must have SINAD and FFT ultra low oise floor and minute harmonic spurri. Howver its actually worse tha having 3 does of Mogadon injected directly into your eyeballs. Blowed if know at the moment But Inhad a very interesting conversation with a very wel regarded electronics professor a week or so back suggesting that analogue can have jitter as in analogue jitter especially within amps, I must admmit I was trying to solder a soic 16 package in at the time, but I will re ask the question I knew turntables have jitter since they don't rotate at an absolutely constant speed, amplifiers is a new one to me too though. I wonder if it is related to transistor memory?
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Post by misterc on Nov 1, 2021 20:18:41 GMT
Soekris make very pleasurable dacs and for the outlay a keenly priced I like em'
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Post by antonio on Nov 1, 2021 23:13:41 GMT
No I've not heard an RME but you know that I think differences in DACs are wildly exaggerated and any minor artifices that may exist will be swamped by the major artifices present in all speakers and rooms. Speaker wise I think he'd need to go quite a bit further than that Heco for a worthwhile upgrade (rather than just different), I would not under-estimate the Triangle speakers he already has. Trouble is good speakers tend to get a bit spendy after that level even second-hand. But to me that's all the more reason not to squander limited funds elsewhere. Great post
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2021 9:33:59 GMT
The other thing to consider is that I don’t have a SS preamp. It could be that the valves in my preamp alter the sound of the RME to make it “less boring”.
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Post by jazzcat on Nov 2, 2021 9:46:43 GMT
Yes, a brief membership because I'd been told that he answers messages on there. He did and he was f#cking useless. I admire your tolerance mate. One thing that made me buy BB3 is your service minded approach. I would never have bought it if I had to wait for an answer 3-4 days. Service and support is the key to happy customer. Just a thought of having to chase someone to give him my money is mind boggling to me, despite how good a product is. stryder5 Think I got the same treatment. Bummer for him as I will look for something else. There are many companies who are much more service minded. Can you imagine the frustration if something needs to get serviced.
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Post by optical on Nov 2, 2021 9:53:22 GMT
Yes, a brief membership because I'd been told that he answers messages on there. He did and he was f#cking useless. I admire your tolerance mate. One thing that made me buy BB3 is your service minded approach. I would never bought if I had to wait for an answer 3-4 days. Service and support is everything. Just a thought of having to chase someone to give him my money is mind boggling to me despite how good a product is. stryder5 Think I got the same treatment. Bummer for him as I will look for something else. There are many companies that are much more service minded. Can you imagine the frustration if something needs to get serviced. Totally agree, just don't get it, you should never have the arrogance to conclude you don't need to support your products or assume you are in such a position that the business will always be so easy to come by, even if you're raking it in. How does one have the initial drive and ambition to develop and release a successful product (which you would have to canvass support for as well as provide sales service) and then completely lack the crucial elements which should come as a courtesy to your current and potential future customers? Don't let it change you when you're a multi millionaire Oli!
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 2, 2021 10:01:11 GMT
jazzcat optical The Soekris brand sells itself. The OEM PCBs are used in some really expensive DACs Lessloss Echos End & Lampizator Golden Gate, to name two. The Soekris name was built in the DIY sector, and generally he responds on their too, but not to emails. I work with/ harass a lot of these types of guys, and they are all capable of not answering emails. Their passion is in the research and design, and anything after that becomes mundane. That's why companies stick the ideas men in the back and the sales men up front. Look past the inadequate service and communications though, and see the design work, the implementation and the sound quality, and you will find a DAC that will play music without giving up detail, transparency or finesse. It's a great DAC, but I understand the concerns. Don't buy the service, buy the product.
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Post by misterc on Nov 2, 2021 10:04:10 GMT
Good post Oli one I recognise, though hhaving a manned tech line would do not harm at all.
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Post by optical on Nov 2, 2021 10:11:28 GMT
jazzcat optical The Soekris brand sells itself. The OEM PCBs are used in some really expensive DACs Lessloss Echos End & Lampizator Golden Gate, to name two. The Soekris name was built in the DIY sector, and generally he responds on their too, but not to emails. I work with/ harass a lot of these types of guys, and they are all capable of not answering emails. Their passion is in the research and design, and anything after that becomes mundane. That's why companies stick the ideas men in the back and the sales men up front. Look past the inadequate service and communications though, and see the design work, the implementation and the sound quality, and you will find a DAC that will play music without giving up detail, transparency or finesse. It's a great DAC, but I understand the concerns. Don't buy the service, buy the product. Get what you're saying fundamentally. Understood loud and clear BUT my point also implies if they did actually get someone on board to take care of that part things would be even better business wise. Fair enough that may not be what they desire and that's fair enough but I'm the modern world makes less and less sense to me. Basically if it were me I'd see the potential to get even more customers and shift more units but I guess that's not everyone's approach I concede.
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Post by jazzcat on Nov 2, 2021 10:29:19 GMT
jazzcat optical The Soekris brand sells itself. The OEM PCBs are used in some really expensive DACs Lessloss Echos End & Lampizator Golden Gate, to name two. The Soekris name was built in the DIY sector, and generally he responds on their too, but not to emails. I work with/ harass a lot of these types of guys, and they are all capable of not answering emails. Their passion is in the research and design, and anything after that becomes mundane. That's why companies stick the ideas men in the back and the sales men up front. Look past the inadequate service and communications though, and see the design work, the implementation and the sound quality, and you will find a DAC that will play music without giving up detail, transparency or finesse. It's a great DAC, but I understand the concerns. Don't buy the service, buy the product. I'm hearing you but not agreeing with you I have my own business with two employees where my core competence is foundation of my company. Customers email me all the time with ideas, help, service and support issues. The time I spent on that I could invest instead to make even greater services for my customers but if I would neglect them, I would not have a company. Maybe hardware business is different, I'm in software business Back to Soekris, the website states: You can purchase our products at these online webshops: Soekris Direct - Europe and Rest of the World - send an email to info@soekris.dk, please include your country and if it's for personal or company use. Yeah, good luck with that It's beyond me that people are willing to give their hard earned money to individuals who don't give a f*ck about their customers. Still today you can email Franc Kuzma and ask him anything and he will respond the same day, despite his passion is in the research, design and build. We are way off topic here, sorry OP
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2021 10:40:55 GMT
This thread is interesting, as the sensible budget options are a €1k clocking device and a €1400 DAC. Neither is going to happen - quickly.
Is the Oehlbach Master XXL not worth the asking price? It is cheap, so I doubt it is anywhere near as good, and probably not worth purchasing.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 2, 2021 10:42:24 GMT
This thread is interesting, as the sensible budget options are a €1k clocking device and a €1400 DAC. Neither is going to happen - quickly. Is the Oehlbach Master XXL not worth the asking price? It is cheap, so I doubt it is anywhere near as good, and probably not worth purchasing. No, it's crap. Tried one twice and twice it made things worse. Not the same level of device. It almost prevented me trying a Mutec.
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Post by optical on Nov 2, 2021 10:52:13 GMT
This thread is interesting, as the sensible budget options are a €1k clocking device and a €1400 DAC. Neither is going to happen - quickly. Is the Oehlbach Master XXL not worth the asking price? It is cheap, so I doubt it is anywhere near as good, and probably not worth purchasing. No, it's crap. Tried one twice and twice it made things worse. Not the same level of device. It almost prevented me trying a Mutec. Any experience with the Audio GD 2014? I'd imagine the Mutec is superior but alternatives are always interesting.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 2, 2021 11:02:01 GMT
No, it's crap. Tried one twice and twice it made things worse. Not the same level of device. It almost prevented me trying a Mutec. Any experience with the Audio GD 2014? I'd imagine the Mutec is superior but alternatives are always interesting. Anything audio GD has left me massively unimpressed, but never tried that.
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Post by jazzcat on Nov 2, 2021 11:08:43 GMT
@bigman80 Any experience with DAC's from MHDT Lab?
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Post by optical on Nov 2, 2021 11:15:06 GMT
Any experience with the Audio GD 2014? I'd imagine the Mutec is superior but alternatives are always interesting. Anything audio GD has left me massively unimpressed, but never tried that. They seem to be a bit of a marmite company. Irrelevant but I bloody love marmite. Back on topic, the two main points regarding audio from a PC seem (to me) to be the importance of galvanic isolation (if using USB) and also the importance of power supplies not leaking any noise into the audio chain. Hence why I will always opt for the dedicated streamer with storage approach. Apologies if that's already been covered
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 2, 2021 11:22:32 GMT
@bigman80 Any experience with DAC's from MHDT Lab? No, none at all. I'll have a look at them.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 2, 2021 11:44:39 GMT
@bigman80 Any experience with DAC's from MHDT Lab? It seems that the MHDT Orchid has a good number of admirers. When I was reading about it, a lot of posters were considering between it and the Audio Mirror Tubadour. However with the Tubadour they were mostly impressed with the SE (special edition) which is double the price. The Orchid is certainly worth a try especially if you have an in-country dealer with 14-day return privileges.
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Post by jazzcat on Nov 2, 2021 11:56:09 GMT
@bigman80 Any experience with DAC's from MHDT Lab? It seems that people like the MHDT Orchid but were really impressed by the Orchid SE which I don't find on their site any more. The Pagoda Balanced seems to impress and is in the same price range as Holo Spring L2, Denafrips Venus, etc. My assumption is that the std Orchid would be fully competent but not impressive as the Orchid SE and Pagoda might be. I was recommended Orchid because I didn't like the sound from the RME ADi-2. They are very quick to respond and have a reseller in Denmark, who have two weeks return window. Might take them up on that offer and hear it for myself. I need a DAC only to explore new music but also for albums I like but not to the extent I would end up buying it on vinyl. Never heard of Orchid SE. Response from the MHDT was that current Orchid is the latest rev.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 2, 2021 12:09:57 GMT
It seems that people like the MHDT Orchid but were really impressed by the Orchid SE which I don't find on their site any more. The Pagoda Balanced seems to impress and is in the same price range as Holo Spring L2, Denafrips Venus, etc. My assumption is that the std Orchid would be fully competent but not impressive as the Orchid SE and Pagoda might be. I was recommended Orchid because I didn't like the sound from the RME ADi-2. They are very quick to respond and have a reseller in Denmark, who have two weeks return window. Might take them up on that offer and hear it for myself. I need a DAC only to explore new music but also for albums I like but not to the extent I would end up buying it on vinyl. Never heard of Orchid SE. Response from the MHDT was that current Orchid is the latest rev. A DAC, if good enough, will find a way to disrupt your listening habits and your dependence on vinyl That's what happened here. I play lots of vinyl, but I can now also have a very enjoyable and lengthy session just with digital. DACs shouldnt be seen as a replacement to Vinyl, or vice versa, in my opinion. They should be seen as an addition to your options for enjoying music. Get a good DAC and you'll wonder why you didnt get one sooner!
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 2, 2021 12:53:35 GMT
Never heard of Orchid SE. Response from the MHDT was that current Orchid is the latest rev. My apologies, bad memory. I was researching the Audio Mirror Tubadour at the same time as the MHDT Orchid and it was the Tubadour that had a special edition that impressed. I'll correct my post above.
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