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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 10:12:55 GMT
My vinyl is now at a level I am pretty happy with, and would cost some serious money to improve on, so my attention is turning to the digital side.
This consists of a PC feeding the DAC directly. I have never tried anything else, and I am not really that interested in a Pi. The PC spec is as follows:
Asus Maximus Hero VIII motherboard (Z170 chipset) I7-6700k - passively cooled Samsung 860 Evo SATA SSDs - one for the system, and one for the music library. Passively cooled Nvidia GT710 (for TV duties) Asus Essence STX II audio card This feeds my RME ADI-2 FS DAC. I either use the optical direct from the mobo, or the coax pass through option on the sound card.
So it is pretty basic, but it sounds pretty good.
The question is, if I fitted an audio optimised USB card (like the Pink Faun) am I likely to get an improvement in around quality? Would this bypass the onboard Sabre DAC and let the RME DAC work better? Or would something like the SPDIF bridge be a better investment? They are both around €325.
Or is there something for a similar price I am overlooking that would be better?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 30, 2021 11:41:42 GMT
My vinyl is now at a level I am pretty happy with, and would cost some serious money to improve on, so my attention is turning to the digital side. This consists of a PC feeding the DAC directly. I have never tried anything else, and I am not really that interested in a Pi. The PC spec is as follows: Asus Maximus Hero VIII motherboard (Z170 chipset) I7-6700k - passively cooled Samsung 860 Evo SATA SSDs - one for the system, and one for the music library. Passively cooled Nvidia GT710 (for TV duties) Asus Essence STX II audio card This feeds my RME ADI-2 FS DAC. I either use the optical direct from the mobo, or the coax pass through option on the sound card. So it is pretty basic, but it sounds pretty good. The question is, if I fitted an audio optimised USB card (like the Pink Faun) am I likely to get an improvement in around quality? Would this bypass the onboard Sabre DAC and let the RME DAC work better? Or would something like the SPDIF bridge be a better investment? They are both around €325. Or is there something for a similar price I am overlooking that would be better? Mutec! I know, it's not cheap......and i know it's audio voodoo, but i am still blown away by mine and i wouldn't be without it. Can you get one off amazon or something and return it if it doesn't work for you?
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Post by dsjr on Oct 30, 2021 12:06:25 GMT
What you've got seems about right and not sure you can do 'better' as the RME should deal with any (imagined rather than real these days I gather) 'jitter issues'
As an SPDIF bridge, what the heck's wrong with a Topping D10s (which you almost certainly don't need)? Optical from a PC is arguably better as it removes any electrical interference from the PC's case getting to the RME. I gather there's a 'window' the digital receiver works in and if the incoming signal is within that 'window,' then I gather the dac receives it and deals with the conversion with no errors/drop-outs.
Hopefully macca will back me up (I'm getting well used to being an audiophile party pooper now I must admit and am trying very hard not to post on seriously subjective threads here), but digits really are digits (the cables, switches and so on don't know if it's music, video or data) until decoded and any major errors needing interpolation would cause drop-outs rather than any sonic changes with a dac of the standard of the RME which is amongst the best out there (until visuals come into play wanting better more expensive casework and so on). By this, I'm suggesting that if the PC wasn't feeding out the data properly, you'd get dropouts and glitches rather than a change in 'sound quality.'
Can you feed USB from the mobo to the RME, bypassing the sound-card altogether?
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Post by jazzcat on Oct 30, 2021 12:11:24 GMT
I’m pretty much where you at. Very happy with analog system and want a decent digital setup. I had RME ADI-2 FS dac but sold it as it sounded to clinical for my taste. Will follow the outcome here with great interest
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 30, 2021 12:27:47 GMT
What you've got seems about right and not sure you can do 'better' as the RME should deal with any (imagined rather than real these days I gather) 'jitter issues' As an SPDIF bridge, what the heck's wrong with a Topping D10s (which you almost certainly don't need)? Optical from a PC is arguably better as it removes any electrical interference from the PC's case getting to the RME. I gather there's a 'window' the digital receiver works in and if the incoming signal is within that 'window,' then I gather the dac receives it and deals with the conversion with no errors/drop-outs. Hopefully macca will back me up (I'm getting well used to being an audiophile party pooper now I must admit and am trying very hard not to post on seriously subjective threads here), but digits really are digits (the cables, switches and so on don't know if it's music, video or data) until decoded and any major errors needing interpolation would cause drop-outs rather than any sonic changes with a dac of the standard of the RME which is amongst the best out there (until visuals come into play wanting better more expensive casework and so on). By this, I'm suggesting that if the PC wasn't feeding out the data properly, you'd get dropouts and glitches rather than a change in 'sound quality.' Can you feed USB from the mobo to the RME, bypassing the sound-card altogether? OMFG......... As electrical signals move from their source to their destination (either short or long distances, whether through a cable or through air) they experience signal loss, which is measured by attenuation (expressed in decibels [Db]).
When building a cable, manufacturers must choose jacket and insulation compounds that support minimized electrical loss.
Insulation materials are designed to have good electrical properties that minimize attenuation and provide proper, uniform impedance.
For best performance, insulation compounds are designed to have a low dielectric constant and a low dissipation factor.
The dielectric constant of a compound defines its electrical properties, such as impedance, and is affected by the polymer and other components in the formula. The dissipation factor is another electrical property that relates to attenuation and other types of signal loss.
The higher frequency used for faster data transmission creates a higher electromagnetic field, which can penetrate through insulation into jacketing; this dissipation of the signal causes data loss. Thus, for these higher category cables with faster data transmission, jacketing materials with a lower dissipation factor should be used.
Signal dissipation could also be reduced by increasing the diameter of the cable and the thickness of the insulation. In most situations, however, the outer diameters of cables are limited because the cables must fit with existing connectors.
Thus, instead of changing thickness, cable designers can choose insulation and jacketing materials with better dielectric properties. Material producers can provide data for dielectric constant and dissipation factor values on both insulation and jacket materials.
It's science!!! You can't just deny it's existence because you dont want to believe in it!.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 12:52:48 GMT
Can you feed USB from the mobo to the RME, bypassing the sound-card altogether? I can, and I intend to try it soon.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 12:54:01 GMT
My vinyl is now at a level I am pretty happy with, and would cost some serious money to improve on, so my attention is turning to the digital side. This consists of a PC feeding the DAC directly. I have never tried anything else, and I am not really that interested in a Pi. The PC spec is as follows: Asus Maximus Hero VIII motherboard (Z170 chipset) I7-6700k - passively cooled Samsung 860 Evo SATA SSDs - one for the system, and one for the music library. Passively cooled Nvidia GT710 (for TV duties) Asus Essence STX II audio card This feeds my RME ADI-2 FS DAC. I either use the optical direct from the mobo, or the coax pass through option on the sound card. So it is pretty basic, but it sounds pretty good. The question is, if I fitted an audio optimised USB card (like the Pink Faun) am I likely to get an improvement in around quality? Would this bypass the onboard Sabre DAC and let the RME DAC work better? Or would something like the SPDIF bridge be a better investment? They are both around €325. Or is there something for a similar price I am overlooking that would be better? Mutec! I know, it's not cheap......and i know it's audio voodoo, but i am still blown away by mine and i wouldn't be without it. Can you get one off amazon or something and return it if it doesn't work for you? I have read that people who have tried a Mutec with an RME noticed very little difference. Maybe Mr. C can shed some light on this?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 13:24:58 GMT
Interestingly, USB will output 24bit/192kHz on my PC, but Amazon music is limited to 24bit/96kHz, which should be enough. Optical and coax are both “limited” to 24bit/48kHz. Will I notice a difference? I doubt it….
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 30, 2021 13:30:29 GMT
Interestingly, USB will output 24bit/192kHz on my PC, but Amazon music is limited to 24bit/96kHz, which should be enough. Optical and coax are both “limited” to 24bit/48kHz. Will I notice a difference? I doubt it…. LF blurring or bloom has been common with optical. Iused a Sony Glass optical cable, but that could be more to do with the streaming devices and CD players.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 13:56:36 GMT
I have just set all outputs to 24bit/192kHz. I may switch between all three and see if I can hear a difference.
I am coming straight out of the DAC into the HiFiman Sundara, so differences should be obvious.
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Post by dsjr on Oct 30, 2021 17:52:24 GMT
What you've got seems about right and not sure you can do 'better' as the RME should deal with any (imagined rather than real these days I gather) 'jitter issues' As an SPDIF bridge, what the heck's wrong with a Topping D10s (which you almost certainly don't need)? Optical from a PC is arguably better as it removes any electrical interference from the PC's case getting to the RME. I gather there's a 'window' the digital receiver works in and if the incoming signal is within that 'window,' then I gather the dac receives it and deals with the conversion with no errors/drop-outs. Hopefully macca will back me up (I'm getting well used to being an audiophile party pooper now I must admit and am trying very hard not to post on seriously subjective threads here), but digits really are digits (the cables, switches and so on don't know if it's music, video or data) until decoded and any major errors needing interpolation would cause drop-outs rather than any sonic changes with a dac of the standard of the RME which is amongst the best out there (until visuals come into play wanting better more expensive casework and so on). By this, I'm suggesting that if the PC wasn't feeding out the data properly, you'd get dropouts and glitches rather than a change in 'sound quality.' Can you feed USB from the mobo to the RME, bypassing the sound-card altogether? OMFG......... As electrical signals move from their source to their destination (either short or long distances, whether through a cable or through air) they experience signal loss, which is measured by attenuation (expressed in decibels [Db]).
When building a cable, manufacturers must choose jacket and insulation compounds that support minimized electrical loss.
Insulation materials are designed to have good electrical properties that minimize attenuation and provide proper, uniform impedance.
For best performance, insulation compounds are designed to have a low dielectric constant and a low dissipation factor.
The dielectric constant of a compound defines its electrical properties, such as impedance, and is affected by the polymer and other components in the formula. The dissipation factor is another electrical property that relates to attenuation and other types of signal loss.
The higher frequency used for faster data transmission creates a higher electromagnetic field, which can penetrate through insulation into jacketing; this dissipation of the signal causes data loss. Thus, for these higher category cables with faster data transmission, jacketing materials with a lower dissipation factor should be used.
Signal dissipation could also be reduced by increasing the diameter of the cable and the thickness of the insulation. In most situations, however, the outer diameters of cables are limited because the cables must fit with existing connectors.
Thus, instead of changing thickness, cable designers can choose insulation and jacketing materials with better dielectric properties. Material producers can provide data for dielectric constant and dissipation factor values on both insulation and jacket materials.
It's science!!! You can't just deny it's existence because you dont want to believe in it!.
What the EFF are you going on about?
I should have left your subjective natures alone and apologies for diving in. We're talking computer data here for DOMESTIC AUDIO , not bloody microwave transmissions where cabling and so on would be important on longer runs - even then, it either works or it doesn't as far as I know! The 'science' was sorted decades ago and any data loss in less than twenty feet of domestic digital interconnect will be totally miniscule and irrelevant I suggest if the cable is satellite cable grade* - it'll work or not basically as the digits at this point are just data for the dac to sollect and decipher. Domestic digital audio is as nothing these days, honestly it is and proper modern dacs should be able to deal with it as if they can't, the sound will glitch or drop out and not be modified in an analogue audio sense - it simply just can't. No, I'm not a bloody graduate in Computer Science, but honestly, in a domestic setup it's a done deal - with a hell of a lot of placebo keeping your hobby side alive. Same with our hearing, which isn't very good in mammalian terms and easily shown in blind comparisons when the eyes are disconnected from the comparison. I don't want to believe in audiophool bullshit as spouted by manufacturers and retailers keen to make a fast buck out of lay people.
* That's a thought, many of you lot have a satellite dish and 'Sky TV.' How long is the cable from your LNB to the Sky-box? Do you lose picture or sound over a certain length. Audio as far as I'm aware, is a fraction of the bandwidth needed for high quality video streaming.
Have you seen the hugely long runs that network cables use? Hundreds of feet in some industrial situations with maybe relay's every so often. No data losses there I assure you - and a school I worked in had the staff room with their PC's hundreds of feet from the servers in the reception office - and I streamed music regularly over many lunchtimes.
I'm trying to learn and not merely believe and it's been an interesting fifty plus years journey, but not from audiophile manufacturers with vested commercial interests and advertising puff with high prices to match. One site many of you seem to deride has properly qualified experienced engineers who can present written peer verified proof of what they say and it usually seems to make sense as they're not trying to prove anything. I'm learning a lot, but apologise for not being able to present findings the way they do. A digital cable either works or it doesn't and cannot possibly in a metre or two run do anything otherwise, especially with an RME dac collecting the data. if some of you still feel there's a subjective difference, I'd love macca to come round and show you while you wear blindfolds with absolutely no idea what you're comparing. Until you do that, you'll differ from me and blame my bad ears, or Aspergic forceful opinion, or just me not being 'good enough' to tell.
Like I said, I'm a subjective audio party pooper. Apologies to Cagey for jumping in here.
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 30, 2021 18:54:35 GMT
The higher frequency used for faster data transmission creates a higher electromagnetic field, which can penetrate through insulation into jacketing; this dissipation of the signal causes data loss.
That's just meaningless bollocks. And the opposite of what is true, higher frequencies penetrate less distance as they are more easily scattered. Dissipation in inversely proportional to frequency.
I'm sure mrc can elucidate on the mechanisms of signal level attenuation relative to rf cable construction.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2021 18:55:20 GMT
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Post by antonio on Oct 31, 2021 1:47:43 GMT
Stop right there Kevin, your dac is perfectly good and I would guess your computer is to, but if I was in your shoes I'd try and borrow from a dealer or friend a purpose built streamer 6-1200 euros) that you could use at home and compare with your computer. If it was towards the higher end of my suggestion you would obviously be looking at 2nd hand so I am not asking you to over stretch your budget. I have an Auralic Aries you would be most welcome to borrow since it is doing nothing in the uk, the problem being you are in France and I honestly do not know how to go on about taxes and duties ect, if you know the answer let me know. If after this you wanted to stick with your computer I would seriously look into a specialised usb output, from what I've read and seen on YT they make a difference, don't know about the bridge you mention, but that would be worth looking into as well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 4:48:13 GMT
A very generous offer Dave. Thanks. I also don’t know how to avoid taxes etc. so I will say thanks, but no thanks.
I may pay the dealers a visit, but I am not expecting much if I am honest.
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Post by rexton on Oct 31, 2021 7:28:35 GMT
What ever happened to just using your ears? I've long since stopped worrying about the arguments of audio, life's too short.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 8:39:30 GMT
Having read some of misterc comments on one of his posts, I am wondering if a 4G usb stick in my music server would be beneficial for Internet streaming? I have around 100Gb a month I never use, and a spare sim. This will remove network noise. The other thought are to get a “HiFi” USB card, powered externally to remove all of the noise on USB, even if it is just the cheap €40 one, or to step this up to a Matrix, JCAT or Pink Faun for around €350. I am thinking of USB as my DAC does not have I2S. I think my ATX PSU is sufficient, as it was chosen as it is low noise. Other options include removing sources of noise, such as the Essence STX II sound card and the GPU, and use the onboard graphics. These are free to do…
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 8:46:11 GMT
The Mk 3 Zen just looks like a PC with a Sean Jacobs linear PSU.
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Post by macca on Oct 31, 2021 8:58:23 GMT
what makes you think you have 'network noise' or noise on USB?
Just because salesmen say it exists doesn't make it so. You already said it sounds good to you. It's could be that no further improvement in signal integrity is possible. I'm not saying it isn't but it does seem unlikely.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 9:10:12 GMT
Mister C mentioned network noise in one of his posts. USB is a noisy interface. It is well known, which is why I avoided it before. But SPDIF is “limited” in it’s bandwidth in comparison.
I have just found a nice Application that allows me to use my Audio PC as a headless device - HySolid.
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 31, 2021 9:41:25 GMT
I have just found a nice Application that allows me to use my Audio PC as a headless device - HySolid. Nice that it is free. It has some mentions on AudiophileStyle but doesn't seem to have a significant fan-base there, so limited user-group help. Perhaps another forum has this?
I can't find any mention that it supports Qobuz or other subscription services.
OTOH: I may try Euphony in the next month or two. NOT free but has a 30 day free trial, an active user group, supports Qobuz, Tidal, and YouTube and operates headless. Some debate over whether current versions sounds as good as an older version (1102).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 9:47:31 GMT
It is for playing my local music library. I am using Amazon Music HD at the moment to stream from the interweb. Not many software packages support it.
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 31, 2021 10:03:14 GMT
It is for playing my local music library. I am using Amazon Music HD at the moment to stream from the interweb. Not many software packages support it. I'll be interested to hear your experiences trying it.
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Post by antonio on Oct 31, 2021 10:22:50 GMT
Looks easy to use, I'm tempted to give it a try but I've got MusicBee working at the moment and don't want to spoil that. I stream through Tidal but don't have them intergrated, MusicBee is far to complicated for a computer numbty like me to even try, I've only changed 2 or 3 settings on MusicBee so basically using as it comes, and it suits me fine. Cagey, why not keep your Amazon HD separate from your library like me?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 10:50:28 GMT
Cagey, why not keep your Amazon HD separate from your library like me? Dave, that is the plan.
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Post by misterc on Oct 31, 2021 11:34:16 GMT
Personally I would change dac's first the rme is very grey and boring IMHO maybe its measurifi dac its very studio like
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2021 11:43:45 GMT
Personally I would change dac's first the rme is very grey and boring IMHO maybe its measurifi dac its very studio like Any suggestions that don’t cost €3k+?
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Post by jazzcat on Oct 31, 2021 12:07:52 GMT
Personally I would change dac's first the rme is very grey and boring IMHO maybe its measurifi dac its very studio like Any suggestions that don’t cost €3k+? That’s similar to my experience with RME dac. I was recommended MHDT Orchid, which is opposite in sound signature from RME, Topping and likes. Haven’t heard one though
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Post by macca on Oct 31, 2021 12:23:12 GMT
Any suggestions that don’t cost €3k+? That’s similar to my experience with RME dac. I was recommended MHDT Orchid, which is opposite in sound signature from RME, Topping and likes. Haven’t heard one though are you using the RME as a pre-amp as well, or just as a DAC into a pre-amp? Both my DACs sound pretty bland used as pre-amps into all but one of my power amplifiers. I think it might be something to do with impedance mis-match although I've never really gone into the maths to see if it could be. I just don't like it and prefer the sound with a pre.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 31, 2021 12:28:36 GMT
Personally I would change dac's first the rme is very grey and boring IMHO maybe its measurifi dac its very studio like Any suggestions that don’t cost €3k+? www.soekris.dk/dac2541.htmlI think you will struggle to find a valid criticism at the price, and it's very easy to upgrade the power supply at a later date to one that makes this a killer DAC. You know I'm hard to please, but the 1421 has been here for ages now and I still really rate it. Even after hearing the Holo Spring 3.
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