Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 15,975
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 6, 2018 20:25:22 GMT
They really are lookers. You can tell someone has put pride and passion into them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 20:42:52 GMT
Got the lid off so thought a couple of topless pics might be nice! Nothing instantly apparent as to why there is any distortion. Needs a pro to have a look.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 20:47:42 GMT
They really are lookers. You can tell someone has put pride and passion into them. Too right Westie, I've spoken to CC Poon a few times and the guy is an absolute pleasure to approach and question. As I've said elsewhere, when someone asks why something isn't right, when you get a genuine answer back and a bit of honesty, it makes a huge difference. I know these will benefit from a couple of bespoke transformers that ARE suited to the UK voltage and because he said the same, I know where I'm headed. I ALSO have a couple of spare rectifiers from Geoff who sold them to me so I'll be looking into those too. These are a class act, all three of them. How they have remained under the radar is astonishing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 21:14:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 21:36:36 GMT
That's what they need mate. A UK spec mains transformer in each and then a once over of the rest of the circuitry. (and of course a pair of Tannoy Cheviots to drive with them ................actually Eatons sound great with these)
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Post by alit on Aug 6, 2018 21:39:27 GMT
Nice amps, have a pro version. Not as good as my OTL though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 21:43:01 GMT
That's what they need mate. A UK spec mains transformer in each and then a once over of the rest of the circuitry. (and of course a pair of Tannoy Cheviots to drive with them ................actually Eatons sound great with these) I've sent a message to CC Poon, asking for the transformer specs so I can get some made up to audio spec. Let's see what they do when they are customed!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2018 21:44:03 GMT
Nice amps, have a pro version. Not as good as my OTL though. Not having that Alit lol. I don't want to know haha!!
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Post by alit on Aug 7, 2018 6:24:09 GMT
LOL. Downside is you need speakers that are happy with 4w/ch.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 7, 2018 7:19:29 GMT
Once again, you're over thinking it.
Different transformers probably won't make it 'sound better,' but may quieten them down. So why not investigate a BMU instead? Doesn't have to be the NVA one, although it has four sockets on it. The Airlink is good and as you'd automatically want overkill regardless, the 1KVA would do just fine and may solve your problems at source? Of all the old Crown D series, the D-60's sound off like buzz-saws (the bigger ones don't) but it's part of the model and never really intrusive, so I leave 'em alone...
Distortion could be a driver gone or one of the output transistors.
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Post by alit on Aug 7, 2018 9:47:30 GMT
I’d say the issue is the U.K. mains voltage level for the transformer noise, looking at the photo it has 230v written on the transformer cover plate. Assuming the transformer is specced for 230v, a new transformer with a higher rated primary would most likely eliminate the mechanical noise. A BMU would not help, unless it’s a DC issue. Better would be a mains regenerator or bucking transformer to get the mains down to 230v. Mine also has some mechanical noise, it was quiet in my last house but get some noise here - I’ve measured the mains here at 250v...
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Post by dsjr on Aug 7, 2018 9:55:56 GMT
A BMU would help sonics I think, but I accept the noise point. Mark 'YNWOAN' has just made a DC blocker (look on the audioflat forum) and his main amp is a humungous Pro model (Lab Gruppen) and I believe he claims no insertion loss...
I believe Airlink can also supply isolating transformers with lower secondary's, giving say, 220V which is supposedly nearer to continental voltages - all you have to do is ask...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 10:04:43 GMT
Once again, you're over thinking it. Different transformers probably won't make it 'sound better,' but may quieten them down. So why not investigate a BMU instead? Doesn't have to be the NVA one, although it has four sockets on it. The Airlink is good and as you'd automatically want overkill regardless, the 1KVA would do just fine and may solve your problems at source? Of all the old Crown D series, the D-60's sound off like buzz-saws (the bigger ones don't) but it's part of the model and never really intrusive, so I leave 'em alone... Distortion could be a driver gone or one of the output transistors. Hi Dave, The Transformers arent suited for purpose in the UK mate, those are the words of the manufacturer. Not mine. The rating of the TF is 230v 50/60hz in all three units. They buzz terribly and it's audible through the speakers!! That's why I got in touch with CC Poon. They don't need to sound better, trust me. They are delightful, both sets for different reasons. They need the noise floor lowering which will happen when the transformers are replaced for purpose built Transformers. I have a DC blocker connected to the BMU that feeds the system. I have already taken the necessary steps to condition the mains. Other than a regeneration unit which could/couldn't affect the sound there isn't any more I can do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 10:10:42 GMT
I’d say the issue is the U.K. mains voltage level for the transformer noise, looking at the photo it has 230v written on the transformer cover plate. Assuming the transformer is specced for 230v, a new transformer with a higher rated primary would most likely eliminate the mechanical noise. A BMU would not help, unless it’s a DC issue. Better would be a mains regenerator or bucking transformer to get the mains down to 230v. Mine also has some mechanical noise, it was quiet in my last house but get some noise here - I’ve measured the mains here at 250v... Got a Variac on them currently via the DC blocker, at 220v the noise is greatly reduced but still apparent. The Transformers are touching the actual PCB so my thought is to replace the TFs with same spec, smaller dimensions to give a bit of breathing room. It'll also get the vibrating TFs off the board. If he'd chosen bigger casework, I think it would be helped.
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Post by alit on Aug 7, 2018 11:10:04 GMT
Not good, should be silent at 220v I’d have thought. Not what I’d expect given how good the amps sound and how much effort must have been put in to making them so.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 11:37:03 GMT
Not good, should be silent at 220v I’d have thought. Not what I’d expect given how good the amps sound and how much effort must have been put in to making them so. Yes it's a bit surprising really as my first hope was to use a bucking transformer but that's not happening now. The Trannys are a problem. I have three units here and they all buzz. One slightly less because it has a replacement TF in it but it's still not close to silent. Unless I can get rid of the noise, they won't be staying as I can't live with it. OCD won't allow it lol
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Post by dsjr on Aug 7, 2018 12:39:05 GMT
Ok. Glad you've done all the right things (to me) so far.
No idea who you're going to use, but Sowter near here in Ipswich seem good people and Ant_TD from Tube Distinctions (mod on AOS) also uses good people by all accounts for his output transformers which HAVE to be properly done.
Maybe you won't need to go silly-money-fancy if the secondary voltage is standard. many good SILENT transformers available (I like a potted brand from RS components but they're a bit pricey and not a huge range as Vigortronics, which you may not hugely care for after previous discussions).
S'cuse me butting in and teaching granny to suck eggs...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 15:36:00 GMT
Ok. Glad you've done all the right things (to me) so far. No idea who you're going to use, but Sowter near here in Ipswich seem good people and Ant_TD from Tube Distinctions (mod on AOS) also uses good people by all accounts for his output transformers which HAVE to be properly done. Maybe you won't need to go silly-money-fancy if the secondary voltage is standard. many good SILENT transformers available (I like a potted brand from RS components but they're a bit pricey and not a huge range as Vigortronics, which you may not hugely care for after previous discussions). S'cuse me butting in and teaching granny to suck eggs... Dave, your input is always welcome. I have been given the details of a fella in Hong Kong who CC Poon recommended and I have had excellent results from Toriody, I'll do some homework because, I am not sure which of the amps I am Going to keep. I don't want to go mad just to sell them although I will easily make my money back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 15:48:41 GMT
Are you sure it's not your mains Oliver? I have to say, I don't recall noticing any hum with those.
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Post by macca on Aug 7, 2018 17:34:39 GMT
What has happened here? You bought one Monarchy off of Geoff now you've got three? Was it pregnant when he sold it to you?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 17:37:19 GMT
Horny Monarchy!!
S.
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Post by macca on Aug 7, 2018 17:37:28 GMT
If you like I'll bring my valve amp down and we'll see if we can get it shagging one of yours. Breed a hybrid.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 22:13:53 GMT
Are you sure it's not your mains Oliver? I have to say, I don't recall noticing any hum with those. Hi Geoff, I don't know how it could be? I use a good DC blocker, I have a good BMU, I measure the mains regularly and it's usually 241v, I only use that socket for hifi and the Network adapter is switched off. I have 4 other pieces of gear plugged in with Toroidal Transformers, the TT/Phonostage/Preamp/BMU and none of them Buzz or hum (not hum, it's a mechanical buzz which is audible through the speakers. 50hz I think) All three Monarchy do it, even the one with the replacement TF but less so. I have measured for DC after the DC blocker and BMU and can't find any. I may not be doing it right but I followed a guide from a forum on how to test for DC on the mains. I've removed 90% of the standard cables and replaced with Belden or better cables and all the plugs are polished. Fuse holders and fuses (just standards) are polished to a mirror finish too. I have now experimented with a Variac via the DC blocker and reduced voltage to 220v and there is still mechanical buzz. I am more than happy for anyone to come and have a listen and see what I am saying and if anyone can think of any other reason for them to be buzzing when the four other bits of kit aren't, I'd love to know. Believe me, Geoff, I don't want to form out more money on Transformers, but that's the ONLY solution I've found that works here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 22:16:03 GMT
What has happened here? You bought one Monarchy off of Geoff now you've got three? Was it pregnant when he sold it to you? Well I bought one and liked it that much, I bought another pair in need of some attention. Let's start a Monarchy stud farm lol
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 22:32:25 GMT
The SM-70 that you first had was quiet. I was using it just prior to sending it mate. There was no transformer noise.
I think something else may be going on. Have you actually checked the mains for DC content? Some amps are more sensitive than others.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2018 22:38:14 GMT
The SM-70 that you first had was quiet. I was using it just prior to sending it mate. There was no transformer noise. I think something else may be going on. Have you actually checked the mains for DC content? Some amps are more sensitive than others. I have checked, how successful I was at it, I don't know but I did check. I tell you what, I will take them to a mates house and try it there. See what happens. The SM-70 is the quietest of the 3. It wasn't intrusive at all when I used it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 14:57:35 GMT
Ok boys,
Riddle me this!!!
I've removed the BMU, the DC blocker, plugged the SM-70 into the Variac and reduced the supply to 220v and there is STILL noise. It's greatly reduced but it's audible and it's the same frequency coming through the speakers. There is also some extra noise, it's intermittent and appears random.
BMU back in, DC blocker back in and supply up to 240v and it's buzzing like a good un'
Background noise has dissapeared though.
So in my opinion, the DC blocker and BMU are doing an effective job at cleaning the mains.
All other units, BMU/Phonostage/Preamp/TT Don't buzz when connected directly into the wall socket.
I can hear the Transformers buzzing in the casework. I have tried to get a video but the sound in my house is mainly of screaming kids lol.
The transformers are the issue. I am 100% convinced.
Does anyone else have any alternative Theory?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 15:05:07 GMT
The reply from Monarchy Audio' CC.Poon.
Oliver,
Hum is a direct result of the transformer being over-driven.
Please use a variac or a step down transformer.
See one user comment using a Balanced Transformer for even better results.
Please also check the voltages at the DC rails (+/- 30V for optimal results)
There no need to adjust the Bias because this adjustment interacts with the DC offset adjustment.
But you should measure the DC offset to make sure the DC at the speaker out terminals is less than 0.1V (It should be no more than 0.05V, or 50mV) when warmed up (after 20-30 minutes)
There is a company in Hong Kong who supplies an upgrade transformer(for even higher sonic performance) You can contact Ray for details:
email: <hongkongrayaudio@gmail.com>
It's custom made and you must specify the AC input voltage
Good Luck.
C.C.Poon
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Post by dsjr on Aug 8, 2018 15:13:24 GMT
I'm sorry for being thick here.
My definition of HUM is what you hear through the speakers, but if this 'hum' is in the form of a buzz, then something is going in in the internals - if the designer is as helpful as you say, if you haven't already, explain it's *through the speakers* and 50hz is a very deep bass tone, so possibly a supply harmonic you're hearing?
I thought it was mechanical hum/buzz from the transformer in the casework as you do seem sensitive to it. Sorry.
Have you checked for earth loops by removing any mains plug earths on the amps? Some pro amps have a 'ground-lift' switch for this very purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 15:33:55 GMT
Hi Dave,
Right, so we are talking about the same thing.....
The Transformers are buzzing through the casework quite loudly (Audible from 6-8 feet away) at ??hz and the same frequency of "noise" is coming through the speakers.
I have now put a separate DC blocker on the Variac feeding the SM-70 only, it has made a difference, good enough to be negligible BUT it is still buzzing in the casework slightly. I am happy that the noise through the speakers is now next to nothing. I am also happy that it isnt the mains supply and is the TFs in the Monarchy stuff that are the issue.
I am going to make a bigger DC blocker like the one you mention YWNA made as i think that will help once the BMU is back in.
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