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Post by brian2957 on Sept 5, 2021 9:45:00 GMT
I currently use metal speaker stands under my Dali Oberons and I've been thinking about building myself a pair of wooden stands. Anyone here use wooden stands or have any opinions/thoughts on metal V wooden stands.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 5, 2021 10:17:34 GMT
I currently use metal speaker stands under my Dali Oberons and I've been thinking about building myself a pair of wooden stands. Anyone here use wooden stands or have any opinions/thoughts on metal V wooden stands. Only thing I can apply to your thoughts are that a few days back i swapped the fairly hard feet on my DAC and Streamer to some much softer alternatives in the form of hemispheres. This has changed the sound in my room, much to my surprise. I can only surmise that the softer material are dampening the vibrations between glass shelf and the feet of the components is the cause. Due to this I will be evicting my glass and metal rack for something of wooden construction asap. Get building Brian. |
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Post by stevew on Sept 5, 2021 12:00:44 GMT
Gawd… don’t say that, I’ve sweated buckets putting back together over the last couple of days!! Lol. Just fired up the streamer and it’s an improvement so far! Had everything scattered about on another Mana stand and the tv unit next to it. Now incorporated the Mana rack to the reference table. I suppose it all depends on the glass and application  |
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Post by stevew on Sept 5, 2021 12:08:57 GMT
…and it has to be said, liberal use of silicon and isolation spheres and pads.
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Post by brian2957 on Sept 5, 2021 12:27:28 GMT
Thanks gents. TBH, as in all things HiFi I will probably only find out when I try it for myself. Just wondered if anyone had any direct experience in swapping between wood and metal stands  |
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Post by stevew on Sept 5, 2021 12:36:24 GMT
Sorry Brian. However.. having been caught in the headlights by the difference that Townshend isolation makes to speakers, it’d be interesting to see if the same applies to wooden stands. Might be sweet.
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Post by brian2957 on Sept 5, 2021 12:53:22 GMT
Never tried anything from Townsend mate. Doesn't matter, your ears, your system, your money. Nice listening room and system BTW |
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Post by brian2957 on Sept 5, 2021 12:57:26 GMT
I currently use metal speaker stands under my Dali Oberons and I've been thinking about building myself a pair of wooden stands. Anyone here use wooden stands or have any opinions/thoughts on metal V wooden stands. Only thing I can apply to your thoughts are that a few days back i swapped the fairly hard feet on my DAC and Streamer to some much softer alternatives in the form of hemispheres. This has changed the sound in my room, much to my surprise. I can only surmise that the softer material are dampening the vibrations between glass shelf and the feet of the components is the cause. Due to this I will be evicting my glass and metal rack for something of wooden construction asap. Get building Brian. Tried all sorts of materials under my system over the years and decided to use wood. Now, there is of course all types of wood, hard and soft, and I eventually settled on bamboo. Sounds best to these ears Oli Now for the speaker supports  |
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Post by rexton on Sept 5, 2021 13:20:08 GMT
I've been a bamboo user for years. Towshend gear is good but expensive. Seismic platform under my 1210 and it made a nice difference. I also use metal and wood stands. Can'tr say I've done that much comparison TBH. Metal ATACAMA stands filled with kiln dried sand under my ATC active speakers and a pair of stands I knocked up from bits of 2x4 and birch ply for when I fancy some IMF or Celestion retro speaker action.
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Post by brian2957 on Sept 5, 2021 13:31:01 GMT
Thanks Andy, metal stands for one speaker and wooden stands for another. I probably won't know until I try wooden stands under my speakers |
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Post by rexton on Sept 5, 2021 14:59:00 GMT
Sorry Brian. To add insult to injury my Tannoys are free standing on moved around with 4 inch castors.
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Post by brian2957 on Sept 5, 2021 17:40:14 GMT
Hah!!! Tannoys are a special case Andy |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 5, 2021 17:44:42 GMT
Hah!!! Tannoys are a special case Andy So are the people that use them  I'M JOKING!!!! lol |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 5, 2021 17:45:31 GMT
Gawd… don’t say that, I’ve sweated buckets putting back together over the last couple of days!! Lol. Just fired up the streamer and it’s an improvement so far! Had everything scattered about on another Mana stand and the tv unit next to it. Now incorporated the Mana rack to the reference table. I suppose it all depends on the glass and application I don't think this one of mine is as high in quality as yours. |
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Post by rexton on Sept 5, 2021 18:37:27 GMT
Hah!!! Tannoys are a special case Andy So are the people that use them I'M JOKING!!!! lol Gee thanks.  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 6, 2021 6:12:41 GMT
So are the people that use them I'M JOKING!!!! lol Gee thanks. I've still not heard a pair of Tannoys. Not sure how I have managed to miss a pair in someone system etc. |
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Post by brucew268 on Sept 6, 2021 8:11:01 GMT
My Proac 1SC's were said to need heavy metal stands and sand or lead filled. I found a definite difference between filled and not filled which affected the body of mids and bass... and that's even with roller bearings under them! So, with these speakers at least am reluctant to consider wood due to shear difference in mass and rigidity. Of course the loading also adjusts the resonant frequency of the stands, so if resonant frequency is the operative difference rather than isolation, then wood is potential candidate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 12:04:52 GMT
Do I have to post the same bad joke here, or does the one on AoS suffice?
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Post by mikeyb on Sept 7, 2021 13:44:37 GMT
Do I have to post the same bad joke here, or does the one on AoS suffice? what is AoS ? |
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Post by electronumpty on Sept 7, 2021 16:12:13 GMT
A bad joke. 😘
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Post by antonio on Sept 7, 2021 23:26:49 GMT
I currently use metal speaker stands under my Dali Oberons and I've been thinking about building myself a pair of wooden stands. Anyone here use wooden stands or have any opinions/thoughts on metal V wooden stands. Only thing I can apply to your thoughts are that a few days back i swapped the fairly hard feet on my DAC and Streamer to some much softer alternatives in the form of hemispheres. This has changed the sound in my room, much to my surprise. I can only surmise that the softer material are dampening the vibrations between glass shelf and the feet of the components is the cause. Due to this I will be evicting my glass and metal rack for something of wooden construction asap. Get building Brian. Hold your horses there Oli, before changing everything try a bamboo chopping board, those that can be purchased from Ikea. Place this on four rubber/sorbothane hemispheres, then place your dac on three or four hard pointy things, with the point going to the board and see if this is any good. Wooden vs metal stands, before you change, try and have a listen, different metal stands make speakers sound different, as do soft and squishy vs hard and pointy things between stand and speaker, I don't think its universal, more of a personal taste. I have my NVA Cube 3's on metal stands, filed with sand (I think filer is a must with metal stands, either heavy filer (sand) or light (cat litter), again these can make a difference to the sound, and wooden cones between speaker and stand which I found more to my liking than sorbothane. |
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Post by macca on Sept 8, 2021 6:23:33 GMT
The surface a DAC sits on won't make the slightest difference to its output. This is just another example of how what we see and know affects what we perceive.
It might make a difference with a turntable but that logic doesn't carry over to solid-state electronics.
Unlike a lot of things this one is easy to blind-test if you have a second person available. Try it before spending money on expensive support equipment.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2021 6:59:34 GMT
The surface a DAC sits on won't make the slightest difference to its output. This is just another example of how what we see and know affects what we perceive. It might make a difference with a turntable but that logic doesn't carry over to solid-state electronics. Unlike a lot of things this one is easy to blind-test if you have a second person available. Try it before spending money on expensive support equipment. Actually, in the book "Dave S. Steinberg, Vibration Analysis for Electronic Equipment" In his findings, vibration can not only deform signals passing through electronic equipment, but also shorten the life span of the equipment itself. Admittedly this is another case of "there may be some truth in it, So let's make a profit" from the audio world, but to rule it out as making ANY difference at this point would be unwise. Heard a difference in my system going from hard feet to super soft feet, but as I said, it was probably from the ratting shelves or something. All equipment needs feet, so you may as well have absorption types on there. |
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Post by stevew on Sept 8, 2021 8:07:17 GMT
The surface a DAC sits on won't make the slightest difference to its output. This is just another example of how what we see and know affects what we perceive. It might make a difference with a turntable but that logic doesn't carry over to solid-state electronics. Unlike a lot of things this one is easy to blind-test if you have a second person available. Try it before spending money on expensive support equipment. We will have to agree to disagree. Early in lockdown I bought a selection of Chinese isolation stuff, just to play around with and mainly for speaker application. However under various dacs (solid state) they all certainly made a difference, particularly the ones that had ceramic ball bearings sandwiched between aluminium discs. Funnily enough, I didn’t like the results that much and consigned them to the drawer of lonely unused things. Might have another bash as I didn’t have the Denafrips at the time. Just remembered I also bought some ball bearings to fit between two IKEA bamboo chopping boards. Not having got to IKEA, they were also consigned to the drawer. Might revisit that one sometime as well for the sake of a few Bob. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2021 8:19:10 GMT
Do I have to post the same bad joke here, or does the one on AoS suffice? what is AoS ? Another Online Site Audio Obsession Site Another Obsession Site |
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Post by brucew268 on Sept 8, 2021 9:35:43 GMT
The surface a DAC sits on won't make the slightest difference to its output. This is just another example of how what we see and know affects what we perceive. It might make a difference with a turntable but that logic doesn't carry over to solid-state electronics. Unlike a lot of things this one is easy to blind-test if you have a second person available. Try it before spending money on expensive support equipment. Anything with an oscillator is likely to be affected by vibration/isolation, not to mention that a DAC has an analog stage. I've found that my DAC benefits subtly from isolation, having had such treatment in and out several times over the years. Speaking of analog and vibration or even electronics and vibration, I'm coming to the conclusion that most electric signal of any kind is affected by vibration. My first build of my buffer preamp used nylon standoff risers. I kept noticing the sound was a bit dull and wondered what I had done wrong. In the multi-step process of elimination, I decided to replace them with brass standoffs. Wow, what a change from dull and plodding to musical! Also, take any cable especially mains and wrap it with silicone damping. The change in sound is easily noticed. |
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Post by brucew268 on Sept 8, 2021 9:46:22 GMT
The surface a DAC sits on won't make the slightest difference to its output. This is just another example of how what we see and know affects what we perceive. It might make a difference with a turntable but that logic doesn't carry over to solid-state electronics. Unlike a lot of things this one is easy to blind-test if you have a second person available. Try it before spending money on expensive support equipment. We will have to agree to disagree. Early in lockdown I bought a selection of Chinese isolation stuff, just to play around with and mainly for speaker application. However under various dacs (solid state) they all certainly made a difference, particularly the ones that had ceramic ball bearings sandwiched between aluminium discs. Funnily enough, I didn’t like the results that much and consigned them to the drawer of lonely unused things. Might have another bash as I didn’t have the Denafrips at the time. Just remembered I also bought some ball bearings to fit between two IKEA bamboo chopping boards. Not having got to IKEA, they were also consigned to the drawer. Might revisit that one sometime as well for the sake of a few Bob. Yes, most 'isolation' stuff actually makes the sound worse, to my ears, or improves one frequency range of the presentation and makes another part worse. I suppose that is because much of it is coupling rather than decoupling, and all that talk about something draining vibration from one surface into another seems ridiculous to me. I think much isolates by changing the resonant frequency of the enclosure so one frequency range gets isolation and another comes through more. Hopefully the new resonant (focal) frequency is out of the audible spectrum or in a place you need it.
I've tried roller bearings in several places. They do great in the horizontal plane but act like steel cones in the vertical plane. So I do a multi-layer sandwich with the bottom one being vertical isolation. But they are a little fiddly so have to make enough improvement to keep them there. These days I use roller bearings under the speakers only, but might do under the preamp again sometime.
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Post by macca on Sept 8, 2021 11:32:07 GMT
The surface a DAC sits on won't make the slightest difference to its output. This is just another example of how what we see and know affects what we perceive. It might make a difference with a turntable but that logic doesn't carry over to solid-state electronics. Unlike a lot of things this one is easy to blind-test if you have a second person available. Try it before spending money on expensive support equipment. Actually, in the book "Dave S. Steinberg, Vibration Analysis for Electronic Equipment" In his findings, vibration can not only deform signals passing through electronic equipment, but also shorten the life span of the equipment itself. Admittedly this is another case of "there may be some truth in it, So let's make a profit" from the audio world, but to rule it out as making ANY difference at this point would be unwise. Heard a difference in my system going from hard feet to super soft feet, but as I said, it was probably from the ratting shelves or something. All equipment needs feet, so you may as well have absorption types on there. Steinberg's research was on stress failure of electronics in vehicles - that is, how they need to be designed to prevent early failure due to continual vibration in that environment. Nothing to do with improving the sound quality of a DAC sat on a shelf in a living room. Shelves rattling is an entirely different issue. To those of you experiencing sound quality differences good or bad - yes so have I. That doesn't mean anything is actually happening in reality. I know I have done a tweak, the subconscious does the rest. Try the comparison blind to eliminate this effect, if you can still reliably tell when the isolation is in place and when it isn't then you may be onto something. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2021 12:10:01 GMT
Actually, in the book "Dave S. Steinberg, Vibration Analysis for Electronic Equipment" In his findings, vibration can not only deform signals passing through electronic equipment, but also shorten the life span of the equipment itself. Admittedly this is another case of "there may be some truth in it, So let's make a profit" from the audio world, but to rule it out as making ANY difference at this point would be unwise. Heard a difference in my system going from hard feet to super soft feet, but as I said, it was probably from the ratting shelves or something. All equipment needs feet, so you may as well have absorption types on there. Steinberg's research was on stress failure of electronics in vehicles - that is, how they need to be designed to prevent early failure due to continual vibration in that environment. Nothing to do with improving the sound quality of a DAC sat on a shelf in a living room. Shelves rattling is an entirely different issue. To those of you experiencing sound quality differences good or bad - yes so have I. That doesn't mean anything is actually happening in reality. I know I have done a tweak, the subconscious does the rest. Try the comparison blind to eliminate this effect, if you can still reliably tell when the isolation is in place and when it isn't then you may be onto something. It may be, but the principals he applied to that design theory don't just become invalid because we didn't attach the DAC to a 737 engine. The principal remains the same, even if in the HiFi world it may not make anywhere near as much impact. If certain levels of vibration can upset a signal passing through a Circuit board, then it's proven. It just may not matter too much at the levels of audio Vs vibration we are talking about. I don't buy the "it's all in the mind" stuff, mate. It can't be when 4 people all report to each other the almost identical differences when we discuss something we are trying, all along these lines. Same as those who say cables don't make a difference....then the same four guys buy a few lengths of cable and report the same things to each other. We can't all be imagining the exact same thing. If it was just me, then ok....I'd wear it, but it isnt. I know it must happen, I do know that and cases where feet are involved with solid state equipment, I do get why the mind may get involved but there is evidence to support the theory of removing vibration from a circuit board being a good thing. At the level some audiophiles are spending, why would you run the risk when £20 in hemispheres will make sure you're alright. |
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Post by macca on Sept 8, 2021 12:36:21 GMT
The principle isn't the same as he was talking about vibrations causing components to fail early, not to perform less well
Whilst the equipment is intact it performs the same as it always did, vibration or no vibration.
The reason multiple people can have the same perception is because how perception works is the same for everyone. Regrettably a whole hi-fi sub industry exists to exploit this factor. It's why a lot of people hear differences by magic stones, Shun Mook discs and other bizarre tweaks that make vibration isolation look sensible.
It's not evidence that something is really happening. It's essentially a conjuring trick that exploits how the mind works.
I take your point about 'It's only £20 for peace of mind why take the risk?', but really there is no risk to be run, other than to the point of spoiling your enjoyment of music by fretting over these things (not that I'm saying anyone here is suffering from that).
Hi-fi equipment (DACs, amplifiers) has been tested by measuring the output with no vibration and then subjecting the device to intense vibration and measuring again. No change to the output. I will see if I can find the link to those experiments later.
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