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Post by robbiegong on Aug 19, 2021 21:13:12 GMT
Whilst I think it is safe to say, that none of us know everything there is to know about this passion of ours. That said, I've been on this journey a long time and always tried to inform myself, as much as possible, towards building myself a system that will hopefully please me, in a big way sonically. Therefore, I'm almost embarrassed to admit that somehow the whole benefit of an off board/external phonostage seems to have slipped me, call it ignorance but looking at it, it seems to be an area that shouldn't have. Anyway, better late than never as the saying goes and now's the time to look to exploring that avenue, particularly as it's now really has dawned on me this is an area where I'm missing a trick, an untapped area for huge potential in terms of taking things to that proper sonic higher level - that's what I sense anyway, wake up time for both me and my set up. I've read plenty on the subject lately and common consensus is, that as far as this analogue game is concerned, you just have to sort out a good external phonostage, in order to get the best out of your precious cart, as a priority, it's not the other way round. Today I asked Google, 'How much difference does a phonostage make?' This, one of many wasnt too long and same common consensus forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-much-difference-does-a-phono-stage-make |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 19, 2021 21:18:13 GMT
Wait til Saturday!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 19, 2021 21:21:25 GMT
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 19, 2021 21:27:29 GMT
Whilst I think it is safe to say, that none of us no everything there is to know about this passion of ours. That said, I've been on this journey a long time and always tried to inform myself, as much as possible, towards building myself a system that will hopefully please me, in a big way sonically. Therefore, I'm almost embarrassed to admit that somehow the whole benefits of an off board/external phonostage seems to have slipped me, call it ignorance but looking at it, it seems to be an area that shouldn't have. Anyway, better late than never as the saying goes and now's the time to look to exploring that avenue, particularly as it's now really has dawned on me this is an area where I'm missing a trick, an untapped area for huge potential in terms of taking things to that proper sonic higher level - that's what I sense anyway, wake up time for both me and my set up. I've read plenty on the subject lately and common consensus is, that as far as this analogue game is concerned, you just have to sort out a good external phonostage, in order to get the best out of your precious cart, as a priority, it's not the other way round. Today I asked Google, 'How much difference does a phonostage make?' This, one of many wasnt too long and same common consensus forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-much-difference-does-a-phono-stage-makeSansui made some excellent onboard phonostages. For instance, the one in the X11 (?) makes most solid state modern day phonostages look like utter toss on spec alone. I would urge you to have a listen to as many as you can, and find your flavour. When i have my BB3 back up and running, you are welcome to a loan. Jamie isnt a million miles away with a Paradise and i am sure there are others who would be happy to help you out with a listen. Kevin has the Graham Slee stuff, but being in the EU he may not be able to help. Take your time mate. |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 19, 2021 21:30:49 GMT
OTP this time for a loan, thought it would give Robbie a taster. Will take it over when I pick it up so he can hear the difference. 🙂 |
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Post by robbiegong on Aug 19, 2021 21:37:24 GMT
Whilst I think it is safe to say, that none of us know everything there is to know about this passion of ours. That said, I've been on this journey a long time and always tried to inform myself, as much as possible, towards building myself a system that will hopefully please me, in a big way sonically. Therefore, I'm almost embarrassed to admit that somehow the whole benefit of an off board/external phonostage seems to have slipped me, call it ignorance but looking at it, it seems to be an area that shouldn't have. Anyway, better late than never as the saying goes and now's the time to look to exploring that avenue, particularly as it's now really has dawned on me this is an area where I'm missing a trick, an untapped area for huge potential in terms of taking things to that proper sonic higher level - that's what I sense anyway, wake up time for both me and my set up. I've read plenty on the subject lately and common consensus is, that as far as this analogue game is concerned, you just have to sort out a good external phonostage, in order to get the best out of your precious cart, as a priority, it's not the other way round. Today I asked Google, 'How much difference does a phonostage make?' This, one of many wasnt too long and same common consensus forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-much-difference-does-a-phono-stage-makeSansui made some excellent onboard phonostages. For instance, the one in the X11 (?) makes most solid state modern day phonostages look like utter toss on spec alone. I would urge you to have a listen to as many as you can, and find your flavour. When i have my BB3 back up and running, you are welcome to a loan. Jamie isnt a million miles away with a Paradise and i am sure there are others who would be happy to help you out with a listen. Kevin has the Graham Slee stuff, but being in the EU he may not be able to help. Take your time mate. True true Olster, I intend to take my time. My Sansui intergrated's phonostage is very good to my ears but I do sense I can do better. When I finally end up with a 'final' one I want it to be the best I can afford without spending daft money, I'm skint anyway. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 19, 2021 22:13:39 GMT
Sansui made some excellent onboard phonostages. For instance, the one in the X11 (?) makes most solid state modern day phonostages look like utter toss on spec alone. I would urge you to have a listen to as many as you can, and find your flavour. When i have my BB3 back up and running, you are welcome to a loan. Jamie isnt a million miles away with a Paradise and i am sure there are others who would be happy to help you out with a listen. Kevin has the Graham Slee stuff, but being in the EU he may not be able to help. Take your time mate. True true Olster, I intend to take my time. My Sansui intergrated's phonostage is very good to my ears but I do sense I can do better. When I finally end up with a 'final' one I want it to be the best I can afford without spending daft money, I'm skint anyway. Trouble is Rob, once you find that one part of your integrated can be bettered...how long before you start to wonder about the other parts? You know phonomac is a devoted Sansui guy, but the system he once had has been completely eradicated thanks to my had influence 🤣🤣 Not a bit of Sansui in sight! (Once he finished his 686. What I'm getting at is that once you start....you won't stop. That's all. |
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Post by robbiegong on Aug 19, 2021 22:38:07 GMT
Ha ha, Yep, Been in this game a long time Olster and as you know it goes with the territory. I've been there and done that, spent thousands on my SL1210, it was upgraded to within an inch of it's life - superseded by my SP10. Ortofon Concorde Pro S - 2M Black mm, Quintet Black mc, Cadenza Black mc - Cadenza Black FGS ... The Spendor D7's are fab and will only be replaced by the revised D7.2 at some point, no hurry, if I remain in my current house. Not saying I'd never replace the Sansui, of course I would, one day, funds permitting BUT, I've learned to stop the faff faff, worrying about upgrades because what I have brings a lot of music pleasure, which is what it's about - I'm feel fortunate, thankful and appreciate what I have. Just simply being able to enjoy the music / system is always a real joy for me and even more so at this stage of my life, and that's come out of suffering too much system downtime for one reason or other over the years. The phonostage curiosity is not a necessity but an itch to scratch / explore to see what extra it might bring in terms of untapped sq - overall, playing tunes means more to me than obsessing over every single aspect of it all, I'm past that one, through pain and experience = wiser  |
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Post by karma67 on Aug 20, 2021 5:09:23 GMT
Hi rob,
I’m happy to bring my paradise and bb3 over so you can hear them in your system.
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optical
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Post by optical on Aug 20, 2021 7:29:11 GMT
Strange how experiences set you on a certain path (for life sometimes!).
Conversely, I don't think I've ever had a system/turntable which DIDN'T have an external phono stage. With the exception of a Marantz 1060 as I knew it's on-board one to be rather exceptional.
To me the separate phono stage has always been part of any system.
I think this stems from my dad as he took time to show me the sequence in which a hi-fi system should be turned on/setup, if not only to stop me messing anything up when I started showing an interest in it!
That's not to say that on-board ones can't be very good, they can as my Marantz can attest to. Sansui certainly make some absolute top notch kit so I doubt you've been flailing behind too badly, however I'm also quite excited for you if your first foray into a dedicated phono stage will be examples such as the paradise and BB3!!
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Post by robbiegong on Aug 20, 2021 10:06:24 GMT
Hi rob, I’m happy to bring my paradise and bb3 over so you can hear them in your system. Nice one Jamie ! noted, and will pm at some point towards sometime suitable in the future - hope you're keeping well btw  |
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Post by antonio on Aug 20, 2021 11:36:33 GMT
I'm the same as Optical, very excited for you Robbie, I know you can blame me for this, in nurturing a seedling that I believe you had planted some time ago. Ignore Bigman's untimely suggestion about having to change your amplifier  , if there ever came a time when you felt like a change, that would be the time to do it, but I'm sure your Sansui would better many pre-power combo's up to a certain level. Back on the main subject, I've always been very happy with my NVA phonostage, for one thing it can be upgraded if you did not want to splash all your cash, available as a one box, then you can add one or two LPS units, if one is added it will power left and right channels, two and each channel gets it's own power supply  I do know Bigman has tried this, feeling his home-made jobbie at the time was the best, but that is only one pair of ears, and of course there is NVA's offer of 30 days and your money back if not completely satisfied. The only drawback is you must buy a MM or MC model, they do not cater for both, but you know what they say, 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. Another brand I would recommend, Tom Evans, seriously detailed stages, I found worked well when I had a Naim 62 with built in stage, but still used the TE, same with my 52. Of course it would be nice to listen to loads of them but completely impracticle, so I would suggest at least trying a valve and SS design and see which you prefer, then you may wish to look further on your preferred avenue. Good luck in your search Robbie, if my brother is heading down your way I will ask him to bring mine for you to hear, since they are completely unused at the moment |
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Post by robbiegong on Aug 20, 2021 11:56:45 GMT
I'm the same as Optical, very excited for you Robbie, I know you can blame me for this, in nurturing a seedling that I believe you had planted some time ago. Ignore Bigman's untimely suggestion about having to change your amplifier , if there ever came a time when you felt like a change, that would be the time to do it, but I'm sure your Sansui would better many pre-power combo's up to a certain level. Back on the main subject, I've always been very happy with my NVA phonostage, for one thing it can be upgraded if you did not want to splash all your cash, available as a one box, then you can add one or two LPS units, if one is added it will power left and right channels, two and each channel gets it's own power supply I do know Bigman has tried this, feeling his home-made jobbie at the time was the best, but that is only one pair of ears, and of course there is NVA's offer of 30 days and your money back if not completely satisfied. The only drawback is you must buy a MM or MC model, they do not cater for both, but you know what they say, 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. Another brand I would recommend, Tom Evans, seriously detailed stages, I found worked well when I had a Naim 62 with built in stage, but still used the TE, same with my 52. Of course it would be nice to listen to loads of them but completely impracticle, so I would suggest at least trying a valve and SS design and see which you prefer, then you may wish to look further on your preferred avenue. Good luck in your search Robbie, if my brother is heading down your way I will ask him to bring mine for you to hear, since they are completely unused at the moment Thanks Antonio, much appreciated and thanks to everyone for the kind offers, great community spirit and hi fidelity experience sharing, hence why I'm here. It's great to still be learning after all these years |
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Post by rexton on Aug 20, 2021 12:28:31 GMT
Robbie,
Your going to need something which is at least as good as your Sansui otherwise you'll not see the benefit. So, the problem then begins with checking out what's available. The BB3 and Firebottles stuff is VALVE which will sound somewhat different and then you might get into the black art of tube rolling, and these guys have set the bar VERY HIGH with respects to the quality of phonostage. Good luck!
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Post by robbiegong on Aug 20, 2021 12:55:39 GMT
Robbie, Your going to need something which is at least as good as your Sansui otherwise you'll not see the benefit. So, the problem then begins with checking out what's available. The BB3 and Firebottles stuff is VALVE which will sound somewhat different and then you might get into the black art of tube rolling, and these guys have set the bar VERY HIGH with respects to the quality of phonostage. Good luck! Thanks Andy, yes I've considered that, also I dont want to go tube. Will be interesting what I hear initially with the Firebottle otp, when Andy pops by with it tomorrow. |
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Post by rexton on Aug 20, 2021 15:57:31 GMT
Well by NOT tube rolling your going to save yourself time, stress and money. You'll then probably want to start op-amp and caps rolling with SS gear.  |
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Post by karma67 on Aug 20, 2021 16:23:54 GMT
Hi rob, I’m happy to bring my paradise and bb3 over so you can hear them in your system. Nice one Jamie ! noted, and will pm at some point towards sometime suitable in the future - hope you're keeping well btw all good here rob,all ok with you? give me a shout when you're ready .
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Post by rexton on Aug 20, 2021 16:54:46 GMT
I think Robbie you'll probably end up wanting a Paradise when you hear what they can do a the black and the FGS and when they are mated up with a decent DD deck.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 20, 2021 17:35:03 GMT
What you need from the phonostage for carts of the Cadenza Black with FGS, Vienna or Windfeld, is a Phonostage that has exceptional SNR ratio.
The only way to hear all of the information these kind of carts can dig up, is to not have it obscured by noise from the phonostage. There are some very good phonostages out there that can do this, ranging from £1200-2500.
I think it would be pertinent to make sure you don't load the gun before you get it.
Auditioning phonostages is absolutely essential, as whilst Valve rolling may get pricey, it doesnt have to. It's also massively enjoyable and could extend your enjoyment of the hobby into another area. Rolling Opamps is also a very fun thing to do, so don't see that as a negative.
There are positives and not-so-positives about almost every single phonostage i have heard. Just keep an open mind and see what happens.
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Post by robbiegong on Aug 20, 2021 18:01:44 GMT
What you need from the phonostage for carts of the Cadenza Black with FGS, Vienna or Windfeld, is a Phonostage that has exceptional SNR ratio. The only way to hear all of the information these kind of carts can dig up, is to not have it obscured by noise from the phonostage. There are some very good phonostages out there that can do this, ranging from £1200-2500. I think it would be pertinent to make sure you don't load the gun before you get it. Auditioning phonostages is absolutely essential, as whilst Valve rolling may get pricey, it doesnt have to. It's also massively enjoyable and could extend your enjoyment of the hobby into another area. Rolling Opamps is also a very fun thing to do, so don't see that as a negative. There are positives and not-so-positives about almost every single phonostage i have heard. Just keep an open mind and see what happens. Indeed Olster and you are making sense to me. My Sansui integrated is very good but it's phonostage is noisy as Alan found out and improved as best he could. Hence, I've felt it's an area for improvement, no doubt. Feel free to name a few of those suitable phonostages, in your view of course |
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Post by rexton on Aug 20, 2021 18:11:25 GMT
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optical
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Post by optical on Aug 20, 2021 18:17:10 GMT
What you need from the phonostage for carts of the Cadenza Black with FGS, Vienna or Windfeld, is a Phonostage that has exceptional SNR ratio. The only way to hear all of the information these kind of carts can dig up, is to not have it obscured by noise from the phonostage. There are some very good phonostages out there that can do this, ranging from £1200-2500. I think it would be pertinent to make sure you don't load the gun before you get it. Auditioning phonostages is absolutely essential, as whilst Valve rolling may get pricey, it doesnt have to. It's also massively enjoyable and could extend your enjoyment of the hobby into another area. Rolling Opamps is also a very fun thing to do, so don't see that as a negative. There are positives and not-so-positives about almost every single phonostage i have heard. Just keep an open mind and see what happens. Indeed Olster Isn't that in Ireland? .... Sorry. |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 20, 2021 18:17:35 GMT
I wouldn't pre- judge a preference on valve vs ss, you might be surprised. Just listen to a load and see what you prefer. BB3 vs Paradise is a great match up and pretty top level to start with, ! . But you probably won't want anything else after hearing one of them!
The OTP is just a nibble.You heard it at mine btw when you dropped the wieght off so you have an idea of what to expect. Of course better to have a listen in your own system with kit you know 👌
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 20, 2021 18:18:43 GMT
What you need from the phonostage for carts of the Cadenza Black with FGS, Vienna or Windfeld, is a Phonostage that has exceptional SNR ratio. The only way to hear all of the information these kind of carts can dig up, is to not have it obscured by noise from the phonostage. There are some very good phonostages out there that can do this, ranging from £1200-2500. I think it would be pertinent to make sure you don't load the gun before you get it. Auditioning phonostages is absolutely essential, as whilst Valve rolling may get pricey, it doesnt have to. It's also massively enjoyable and could extend your enjoyment of the hobby into another area. Rolling Opamps is also a very fun thing to do, so don't see that as a negative. There are positives and not-so-positives about almost every single phonostage i have heard. Just keep an open mind and see what happens. Indeed Olster and you are making sense to me. My Sansui integrated is very good but it's phonostage is noisy as Alan found out and improved as best he could. Hence, I've felt it's an area for improvement, no doubt. Feel free to name a few of those suitable phonostages, in your view of course It wouldn't be right of me to wade into recommending Phonostages, as I sell the two I'd recommend. The best advice I can give is try a few of each type and you'll start to get a feel of what's important to you. |
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Post by karma67 on Aug 20, 2021 18:20:08 GMT
Of course better to have a listen in your own system with kit you know 👌 100% agree. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 20, 2021 18:21:11 GMT
Well, it may not actually. Depends on whether the "A weighted" figure is used. If so, its not really cricket. What you want is the "unweighted" number. That's where the figures start to get interesting. |
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Post by robbiegong on Aug 20, 2021 18:31:13 GMT
I wouldn't pre- judge a preference on valve vs ss, you might be surprised. Just listen to a load and see what you prefer. BB3 vs Paradise is a great match up and pretty top level to start with, ! . But you probably won't want anything else after hearing one of them! The OTP is just a nibble.You heard it at mine btw when you dropped the wieght off so you have an idea of what to expect. Of course better to have a listen in your own system with kit you know 👌 Actually, your system sounded damn good, if you remember me saying. I was actually surprised, as it wasnt an in your face set up, but sounded really good - yeah. |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 20, 2021 19:30:41 GMT
Thanks, yes I do and the very kind review you did on aos. ☺
The OTP was key to that sound so it will be really interesting to see how it sounds with your kit. 🙂
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bigbird
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Post by bigbird on Aug 20, 2021 19:49:15 GMT
Hi Rob hope you’re well mate?
Your in for some fun times ahead with all these fantastic offers to listen to some of the best stages out there .
Having had the OTP for a short while a few years ago and comparing it to a number of unit that were similarly priced from the likes of Rega, Graham slee , Naim I can say that the OTP was ever so slightly better than these stages in the 3-400 price range so represents a bit of a bargain for an introductory level stage but I really don’t think it’s going to be able to show you what that lovely cartridge is capable of , or wether it will be any or much better than what you already have ?
The first time i got a taste of what good Phonos are all about was when I bought the Whest 2.2. Things really stepped up quite a bit with regards to clarity ,detail and resolution and if you are a fan of SS then I would have a look at the Whest range as they can be had for about 7-800 used or 1500 new . Some say they are one of if not the best retail units out there under 2k . That said there are some very handy lads on here that could knock you up a Paradise for similar money to a new Whest which will undoubtedly be better .
The next big step up from my Whest came from the BB3 . For a grand they have to be one of the biggest Hifi bargains in the world . Things just opened up and you got deeper into the mix . Things were more 3dimensional more detail, more colourful more resolution . To say it’s 500 cheaper than a new Whest unit , and to be that much better was a bit of a shock and it started me on my journey with DIY Hifi and I haven’t looked back. My setup is pretty much at reference levels now with the BB3 ,BT2,686. I certainly wouldn’t let the whole valve vs SS sway your opinion just yet mate . There are some brilliant valves that can be had for 10-20 quid each and will likely last a couple of years each as they are not driven hard in the BB3.
My friend has also just bought a BB3 to replace his Whest 2.2 and he said it’s the first time he’s been able to hear what his very expensive (3k)Soundsmith cartridge is capable of and it makes the Whest sound flat and 2d. I have to agree . It’s not subtle
You have to wonder what a unit of this level would cost you in a retail environment if it’s making mince meat of one of the best sub 2k Phonos in the world ? 3 ,4K maybe? Alan and Oli have done a brilliant job on this one and I can’t think of anything out there for a grand that can show it up . I would definitely give this one some serious consideration if I was in the market
I think it would be a matter of personal preference between that and the paradise for world class playback at sensible prices .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 20, 2021 20:13:08 GMT
Hi Rob hope you’re well mate? Your in for some fun times ahead with all these fantastic offers to listen to some of the best stages out there . Having had the OTP for a short while a few years ago and comparing it to a number of unit that were similarly priced from the likes of Rega, Graham slee , Naim I can say that the OTP was ever so slightly better than these stages in the 3-400 price range so represents a bit of a bargain for an introductory level stage but I really don’t think it’s going to be able to show you what that lovely cartridge is capable of , or wether it will be any or much better than what you already have ? The first time i got a taste of what good Phonos are all about was when I bought the Whest 2.2. Things really stepped up quite a bit with regards to clarity ,detail and resolution and if you are a fan of SS then I would have a look at the Whest range as they can be had for about 7-800 used or 1500 new . Some say they are one of if not the best retail units out there under 2k . That said there are some very handy lads on here that could knock you up a Paradise for similar money to a new Whest which will undoubtedly be better . The next big step up from my Whest came from the BB3 . For a grand they have to be one of the biggest Hifi bargains in the world . Things just opened up and you got deeper into the mix . Things were more 3dimensional more detail, more colourful more resolution . To say it’s 500 cheaper than a new Whest unit , and to be that much better was a bit of a shock and it started me on my journey with DIY Hifi and I haven’t looked back. My setup is pretty much at reference levels now with the BB3 ,BT2,686. I certainly wouldn’t let the whole valve vs SS sway your opinion just yet mate . There are some brilliant valves that can be had for 10-20 quid each and will likely last a couple of years each as they are not driven hard in the BB3. My friend has also just bought a BB3 to replace his Whest 2.2 and he said it’s the first time he’s been able to hear what his very expensive (3k)Soundsmith cartridge is capable of and it makes the Whest sound flat and 2d. I have to agree . It’s not subtle You have to wonder what a unit of this level would cost you in a retail environment if it’s making mince meat of one of the best sub 2k Phonos in the world ? 3 ,4K maybe? Alan and Oli have done a brilliant job on this one and I can’t think of anything out there for a grand that can show it up . I would definitely give this one some serious consideration if I was in the market I think it would be a matter of personal preference between that and the paradise for world class playback at sensible prices . $$$$  🤣🤣 |
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, if there ever came a time when you felt like a change, that would be the time to do it, but I'm sure your Sansui would better many pre-power combo's up to a certain level. Back on the main subject, I've always been very happy with my NVA phonostage, for one thing it can be upgraded if you did not want to splash all your cash, available as a one box, then you can add one or two LPS units, if one is added it will power left and right channels, two and each channel gets it's own power supply 
I do know Bigman has tried this, feeling his home-made jobbie 
