Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Aug 27, 2021 13:52:05 GMT
angus's one doesn't hum or at least it didnt when i heard it, what are you doing thats different from his?My grounding configuration is different. I hadnt realised, but i havent done it how it should be done for the Avalaon, i did it the same way as i did for the BB3. I will be sorting this out over the weekend! Thought Angus and i had covered all the bases of what needed to be done, but as usual....theres always one thing that escapes.
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Aug 27, 2021 17:39:02 GMT
Oli is it hum from the traffo placement or from the wiring? I have some teeny tiny little DDRC circuits built up if you want to try one in the 0v. Pcb is about 40 x 20mm.
I some times use them in paradise builds if customer has odd neutral wiring in their house.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Aug 27, 2021 17:48:52 GMT
Oli is it hum from the traffo placement or from the wiring? I have some teeny tiny little DDRC circuits built up if you want to try one in the 0v. Pcb is about 40 x 20mm. I some times use them in paradise builds if customer has odd neutral wiring in their house. Defo hum from the traffo placement. We have some shielding strips on the way which wrap around the transformer. The other issue is that i did not take in the info Angus gave me about the grounding system it needs, so i have to sort that out. Too much impatience lol I'll see what happens when the grounding is sorted and the strips are in place and if it's still an issue, i'll give you a shout. I appreciate the offer
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 5, 2021 16:22:42 GMT
Ha! We're in business.
The Avalon is now Hum free and singing wonderfully.
My house being the absolutely epitome of "noisy" means that the noise id been getting was due to airborne RF.
After speaking to both Angus and Alan, I fitted a couple of 100pf suppression caps on the input and voila! Noise is all gone.
Hum is gone too, so Traffo placement is looking like it may be no issue.
That said, Angus is still experimenting with physically different size traffos and it's likely that I could make a change anyway. Especially if he can reduce the radiated field in the case. That's always a winner.
However, looks like the casework is safe and fit for purpose and the matching casework I ordered for the BT2 build is not a waste of money.
Very positive Sunday.
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 5, 2021 16:50:56 GMT
Has anyone tried the black metal 'cans' to fit over toroids? Sorry to keep asking but it's just an idea or concept I wanted to put to bed before moving on.. Mainly applicable to MC cartridges obviously.
Another spouting from backside question, but isn't it common for MC inputs to have a few hundred pF across the inputs?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 5, 2021 17:25:02 GMT
Has anyone tried the black metal 'cans' to fit over toroids? Sorry to keep asking but it's just an idea or concept I wanted to put to bed before moving on.. Mainly applicable to MC cartridges obviously. Another spouting from backside question, but isn't it common for MC inputs to have a few hundred pF across the inputs? Yes, black iron cans are VERY effective in reducing radiated field. The reason I haven't used one here is the fact I haven't cemented the size of the Traffo yet. That will happen and then I'll either use grain oriented banding (Angus' choice) or I'll use a can. See whether I can fit one in! As for a couple of pf across the inputs, yes.....but the prototype didn't have them and didn't need them. Also, the best place for them is on the sockets, not the PCB (so I'm told) so it's not the end of the world, just means I will fit two on my sockets 👍
|
|
|
Post by rexton on Sept 5, 2021 18:39:42 GMT
Why not use iron cans and grain oriented banding, I'd be using both if this is supposed to be Reference level stuff.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 5, 2021 18:57:18 GMT
Why not use iron cans and grain oriented banding, I'd be using both if this is supposed to be Reference level stuff. Well, there is a chance i may end up doing so, but we have a bit of kit that will tell us whether it is needed or not. "Reference level" doesn't just mean "throw the kitchen sink at it" lol So far, the banding alone is making a serious fist of stopping any radiated field from hitting the PCB or the output sockets. We have more things we want to try that will prevention, rather than trying to find a cure.
|
|
|
Post by rexton on Sept 5, 2021 19:24:22 GMT
. "Reference level" doesn't just mean "throw the kitchen sink at it" lol Oli, it's just in my nature to get the very last ounce of performance out of everything, s'pose it's a curse really.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 5, 2021 20:40:44 GMT
. "Reference level" doesn't just mean "throw the kitchen sink at it" lol Oli, it's just in my nature to get the very last ounce of performance out of everything, s'pose it's a curse really. I'm no different, Andrew. There are certain things that do make it worthwhile to spend money after purchasing kit. However, in order to be reference level, things should be done correctly in the first place and negate the need for the owner to spend "improving" the unit at later date. What we are doing to the Avalon now, is making sure that we've dotted the i's and crossed the T's The Traffo is the last bit of the puzzle in this build and in truth, as it is right now, unshielded and sited where it is... it's absolutely fine......but that's not is not good enough for Angus. He has an expensive bit of kit that tells him how much radiated field is being seen by the PCB, and where it is. What we're doing is belt and braces. Trust me.
|
|
|
Post by rexton on Sept 5, 2021 21:12:35 GMT
oh I trust you both.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 5, 2021 21:51:19 GMT
We have a plan and so far everything has been exactly as Angus said it would be. The only variable happened when I built mine 🤣 But, now we've sussed what's going on, there's a very good chance that this will be finalised in the next couple of weeks. There's a method of using 2 transformers that actually reduces the radiated flux of each one, depending on how it's wired. . This is what we're looking into and if it is the case and Angus can make that work, we will have a separate transformer for each channel, smaller radiated field and absolutely no radiated field getting to the PCB. Doesn't get much better than that!
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 6, 2021 6:53:06 GMT
Why not use iron cans and grain oriented banding, I'd be using both if this is supposed to be Reference level stuff. . "Reference level" doesn't just mean "throw the kitchen sink at it" lol That's 'Statement Level'.
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 6, 2021 9:53:56 GMT
Don't shoot me, but this is where measurements CAN be very handy, so you try one option and see as well as hear any difference - and then try another option. Obviously a manufacturer would usually take the cheapest option, but if in this case, both techniques together really work, then there you are I learned decades back that ANY hum on an MC phono stage isn't really a good thing Perceived soundfield and reverb doesn't seem as well reproducted - why I kicked off years ago regarding 'that' phono stage bakeoff when there was a persistent hum-thing going on.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 6, 2021 10:26:48 GMT
Don't shoot me, but this is where measurements CAN be very handy, so you try one option and see as well as hear any difference - and then try another option. Obviously a manufacturer would usually take the cheapest option, but if in this case, both techniques together really work, then there you are I learned decades back that ANY hum on an MC phono stage isn't really a good thing Perceived soundfield and reverb doesn't seem as well reproducted - why I kicked off years ago regarding 'that' phono stage bakeoff when there was a persistent hum-thing going on. No Dave, spot on. Measurements have a very significant part to play, especially in the development of new kit. Seeing as we have the opportunity to make sure we get this part right, it makes sense to try a few things out and so far this has included different types of traffos, different makes of Traffos, different Va, different physical size.... There has been a lot of experimentation. Hum does seriously affect the performance of phonostages and I can't disagree on that, but when you look at how much aggro we're going to to get it right, not only with the Avalon, but how many different types of traffo I tried in the BB3, it also highlights how little effort there was from "other parties" to do the same in their products. That's what irked me about "THAT" particular bakeoff.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 7, 2021 9:00:22 GMT
It's been a good couple of days. With the hum and noise eradicated from the Avalon, I have finally been able to settle myself in for a listen. Bearing in mind that it is brand new and only has a couple of hours on it, to say I'm pleased is an understatement.
Still feeling a little reluctant to say too much, but I thought i would share a few observations of what i am hearing.
Obviously with it having so few hours on it, it needs more to fully settle in, so keep that in mind as you read on.
When i visited Angus a few weeks back to get a listen to the Windfeld, there was a moment where i wondered what was doing what. How much of the performance was down to the Windfeld and how much of it was the Avalon. I am very familiar with the other pieces in the system, as they were exactly the same as mine. So this was really what i wanted to know when i got my Avalon up and running.
Whilst at Angus's, we played Norman Blakes - Saurkraut 'n solar energy. Still in my memory was how the opening bass had sounded taut, clean and tonally convincing, which surprised me as solid state phonostages aren't supposed to be tonally convincing, are they?
However, the bit i was really interested in was the right hand of the bass player. Him making contact on the strings and plucking them was very clear and more audible than in my setup, which with a Windfeld in place really should be.
After listening to various bits for a couple of hours i decided to go for it and see what happened.
Sitting comfortably, the bass notes started and to my delight the bass player sounded remarkably similar to that of the one living in my memory. High level of information with none of that anaemic characteristic of previous SS phonostages i have heard before.
Listening on, i found myself picking up little nuances and bits of information that i hadn't heard before. Knowing i hadn't had this album for very long, I decided to listen to a few more Albums i know really well.
I plonked the 50th anniversary edition of Sgt. Pepper on to the SP10 and sat back.
I don't think i moved a muscle for the entire side....Wowzers!
There has always been a lot going on in Sgt. Pepper, but now it was like there was more happening, but i was easier to hear it. Obviously having the Ortofon Vienna in place is making things so much better than the Ethos (when i played this last it was with the Ethos), but the Avalon revealed detail and clarity at a level unbeknownst to me.
For instance, with the BB3 in place, there has always been the ability to hear the needle in the groove on some LP's. You know the quiet passages etc, and usually on some of my more "used" LP's, however, i felt i had a lot of decent vinyl with clean grooves....turns out i don't.
The Avalon is so quiet that on a lot of my vinyl the needle running in the groove is clearly audible. Not only audible, but almost 3D in imaging....which I was, and still am, quite confused about. However, it's not impinging on the music when it is playing, so no worries there.
I asked Angus about this:
"That has always been there. You just couldn't hear it"
I have always known that valves cannot match the best Solid state designs for SNR, but solid state designs have never sounded as good as the best valve phonostages, well in my experience anyway. That has always been the trade-off. You don't listen to SNR numbers, we listen to music and for me the Valve has always been king of phonostages.
So far, the Avalon is proving that Solid state phonostage of this calibre deserve audition, and in truth, probably obliterate the idea that Solid-state can't sound realistic or natural.
More to come when i have done more listening.
|
|
|
Post by robbiegong on Sept 7, 2021 9:52:35 GMT
Thanks Olster.
I have very little experience with off board phono stages and the little experience I have is recent.
That said, one thing that is clear to me, having spent time with the humble OTP MK1 in my set up currently, is that a decent, well implemented phono stage is a critical aspect towards achieving high quality vinyl replay.
Without going into a long post and keeping things simple, to my ears the onboard integrated phonostage in my Sansui and i suspect in the majority of integrated amps does the job, and to a degree where the replay is pretty much 1 / occasionally 2 dimensional. Whereas as with a well implemented stage you realise 2d/3d replay dimentionality. Not only that, but the layers and textural information pertaining to each individual part of the recording is laid bare and provides a more tangible sonic presentation.
I'll add that the cartridges resolving aspect of the recorded information in particular is much better. Previously smeared lines/pieces of recorded music info is suddenly revealed / separated out, which is wonderful and that's the type of thing a good, well implemented phonostage does.
Oh, and low noise a very important aspect of the componentry implementation, as the Olster has previously pointed out
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Sept 7, 2021 11:00:48 GMT
I suppose there will be a few, after reading your post already on the phone to their bank managers.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 7, 2021 16:56:39 GMT
Thanks Olster. I have very little experience with off board phono stages and the little experience I have is recent. That said, one thing that is clear to me, having spent time with the humble OTP MK1 in my set up currently, is that a decent, well implemented phono stage is a critical aspect towards achieving high quality vinyl replay. Without going into a long post and keeping things simple, to my ears the onboard integrated phonostage in my Sansui and i suspect in the majority of integrated amps does the job, and to a degree where the replay is pretty much 1 / occasionally 2 dimensional. Whereas as with a well implemented stage you realise 2d/3d replay dimentionality. Not only that, but the layers and textural information pertaining to each individual part of the recording is laid bare and provides a more tangible sonic presentation. I'll add that the cartridges resolving aspect of the recorded information in particular is much better. Previously smeared lines/pieces of recorded music info is suddenly revealed / separated out, which is wonderful and that's the type of thing a good, well implemented phonostage does. Oh, and low noise a very important aspect of the componentry implementation, as the Olster has previously pointed out Imagine a Phonostage that makes your speakers disappear 😉
|
|
|
Post by robbiegong on Sept 7, 2021 17:12:32 GMT
Thanks Olster. I have very little experience with off board phono stages and the little experience I have is recent. That said, one thing that is clear to me, having spent time with the humble OTP MK1 in my set up currently, is that a decent, well implemented phono stage is a critical aspect towards achieving high quality vinyl replay. Without going into a long post and keeping things simple, to my ears the onboard integrated phonostage in my Sansui and i suspect in the majority of integrated amps does the job, and to a degree where the replay is pretty much 1 / occasionally 2 dimensional. Whereas as with a well implemented stage you realise 2d/3d replay dimentionality. Not only that, but the layers and textural information pertaining to each individual part of the recording is laid bare and provides a more tangible sonic presentation. I'll add that the cartridges resolving aspect of the recorded information in particular is much better. Previously smeared lines/pieces of recorded music info is suddenly revealed / separated out, which is wonderful and that's the type of thing a good, well implemented phonostage does. Oh, and low noise a very important aspect of the componentry implementation, as the Olster has previously pointed out Imagine a Phonostage that makes your speakers disappear 😉 EXACTLY !
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 7, 2021 17:24:17 GMT
Currently listening to Chicken Skin Music by Ry Cooder.
I haven't heard this for a long time, well before the Q Acoustics, the Vienna and the Avalon
It's unrecognisable. The percussion in particular. I'm hearing some really intelligent accompanying rolls and rhythm play. Acoustic guitar slide that screams metal on metal and it's all spaced out really really well.
I'm absolutely loving it.
|
|
|
Post by robbiegong on Sept 9, 2021 13:40:46 GMT
How's Avalon life going Olster ?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 9, 2021 14:23:44 GMT
How's Avalon life going Olster ? Rob, I am sat here listening right now and I'm utterly entertained. I've been putting some hours on it as it hadn't had many. I'm probably at about the 10-15 hour mark and the bass has started to develop some textural depth. Listening to karma67 's favourite track for VTA setup and it's getting to the point that the believability I always assumed was exclusive to valves, is now convincing me that it isn't. Some intricate bow work on a fiddle has me hearing way more detail, better timing and a sort of tactile quality that I haven't gotten from solid state gear before.
|
|
|
Post by robbiegong on Sept 9, 2021 14:30:54 GMT
How's Avalon life going Olster ? Rob, I am sat here listening right now and I'm utterly entertained. I've been putting some hours on it as it hadn't had many. I'm probably at about the 10-15 hour mark and the bass has started to develop some textural depth. Listening to karma67 's favourite track for VTA setup and it's getting to the point that the believability I always assumed was exclusive to valves, is now convincing me that it isn't. Some intricate bow work on a fiddle has me hearing way more detail, better timing and a sort of tactile quality that I haven't gotten from solid state gear before. Excellent Olster and good to hear. I've never bought the 'valves do it better' thing. It's about the quality an implementation of componentry / design, coupled with when all the other parameters have been done properly and covered off, that's what allows the recorded music to really come through, unhindered.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 9, 2021 14:51:33 GMT
Rob, I am sat here listening right now and I'm utterly entertained. I've been putting some hours on it as it hadn't had many. I'm probably at about the 10-15 hour mark and the bass has started to develop some textural depth. Listening to karma67 's favourite track for VTA setup and it's getting to the point that the believability I always assumed was exclusive to valves, is now convincing me that it isn't. Some intricate bow work on a fiddle has me hearing way more detail, better timing and a sort of tactile quality that I haven't gotten from solid state gear before. Excellent Olster and good to hear. I've never bought the 'valves do it better' thing. It's about the quality an implementation of componentry / design, coupled with when all the other parameters have been done properly and covered off, that's what allows the recorded music to really come through, unhindered. Well, being 100% honest...valves HAVE always done it better in my experience. The main exception being in amplification, where even against some ridiculously expensive valve amps, solid-state has been my choice. However, even the poorer valve phonostages have usually been far more listenable that the "highly rated" solid state ones. This was emphatically proved way back when, at the Penkridge bakeoff. To me anyway. However, I have remained open minded and when the BT2 landed it was a turning point in my system. So, it's safe to say when Angus put the Avalon together in his mind, I was very excited. It's giving me more detail than I have had in my system at any point, but doing so in a way that doesn't distract from the the overall composition. Listening to John Lennon, Mind Games. Heard it more times than I care to remember......but not like this.
|
|
|
Post by electronumpty on Sept 9, 2021 15:23:15 GMT
Listening to John Lennon, Mind Games. Heard it more times than I care to remember......but not like this. An apt title for some subjective listening😉 Sounds like a great piece of kit coming together 👏👏
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 9, 2021 15:32:44 GMT
Listening to John Lennon, Mind Games. Heard it more times than I care to remember......but not like this. An apt title for some subjective listening😉 Sounds like a great piece of kit coming together 👏👏 Yeah it's developing and opening up nicely. I'm enjoying putting hours on it and that hasn't been the case with a lot of stuff.
|
|
|
Post by stryder5 on Sept 9, 2021 16:37:10 GMT
robbiegong sorry for being a bit of a cork in the bottle.....but Firebottle has it now. Gary
|
|
|
Post by robbiegong on Sept 9, 2021 16:40:28 GMT
robbiegong sorry for being a bit of a cork in the bottle.....but Firebottle has it now. Gary Lol - Thanks Gary, yes, I've heard from him so all good
|
|
|
Post by rexton on Sept 9, 2021 19:06:29 GMT
Believe me or not I'm having my ears checked out to make sure I've a good idea of my audio spectrum, I'm sure I have some loss. Hopefully this may help in detailing what I might hear when this comes to Rexton's Manse.
|
|