Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 26, 2021 11:50:49 GMT
We’ve all heard it….”it's your ears adjusting!” So, explain this: As some of you may remember, on October 9th 2020, I bought a brand new Goldring Ethos due to the death of my HA103-SEL. Since ownership started, I have not listened to a great deal of vinyl. Maybe 50-75ish hours. After reaching a certain hourly mark (which I will have to look up) I noted that my setup was a little off. I reinstalled my 5 pin din to RCA adapter and checked the setup. I noted that the adapter had worked loose with the changes of cables etc, and the return of performance was pretty instant when refitted. It's been a couple of weeks since karma67 visited and I think the Vinyl sounded bloody good that day and since, but over the last few hours, I felt things changed. Wondering if the adapter had worked loose somehow, so i checked. It hasn’t budged. Laughing to myself, i thought “i wonder if Jamie has cursed my VTA with his Vinyl recommendation” I recently bought a Norman Blake LP after hearing Jamie's copy. He explained how he uses it to set up his VTA via listening to a track with an upright bass. “Maybe i should just check my VAT and Tracking weight?” Well, for some reason the arm is tail up? I looked at the cart and noticed it seemed to be riding a little lower than I remember. I reset the VTA using my own tried and tested methods and checked the tracking weight. 1.88g…..it’s been 1.75g everytime i have checked it, except today? I have no idea what's going on here, but the room is no warmer than normal, i haven't checked anything or adjusted anything for a couple of weeks etc….yet today it was all out! The only thing I can think of is that since I rebuilt my BB3, I have been listening to way more vinyl. A few hours per day at least. Has this finally run the cartridge in? Has the suspension now settled and thus explains the lower ride height etc? Answers on a postcard. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2021 13:25:22 GMT
Most carts I've had sound better new.
The sound if anything gets worse not better.
Just me .
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Post by rexton on Jul 26, 2021 15:08:50 GMT
I think you might have guessed correct. My reworked Cadenza black took about 40 hours to fully sound like it should. I remember being told by Killian about the break in period with the suspension. Those 40 hours were horrid and I remember thinking," What have I done?", "I'll never get the system sounding as good as it used to". Low and behold, 40 hours pass and things improved no end. I'm a firm believer in cartridge "break-in", it's occured far too many times on my systems for it to be a miscallenous variable.
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Post by karma67 on Jul 26, 2021 15:56:12 GMT
also check you counter weight stays where its set,mine wanders over time.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 26, 2021 18:13:43 GMT
also check you counter weight stays where its set,mine wanders over time. It didn't look to have moved bit I will monitor it. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 26, 2021 21:20:00 GMT
Temperature.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 26, 2021 23:20:48 GMT
Nope, I don't think it is. In room temp was 20C when I checked, as the sun is on the rear of the house. |
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Post by antonio on Jul 27, 2021 0:20:11 GMT
It's the digital fairies that come when your sleeping, they're trying to tell you to stick with the 0's and 1's. I'm not a great believer in this 100-200hrs burn in on anything, ok maybe 10-20hrs, after that you should be good to go, I agree with SQ, temperature/humidity must change the sound of a cartridge in someway.
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Post by rexton on Jul 27, 2021 7:03:46 GMT
Nope, I don't think it is. In room temp was 20C when I checked, as the sun is on the rear of the house. Don't forget temperature is variable. The components of your cartridge may react to temperature at specific times due to specific temp levels and the same might be said for the humidity variable. It could be the rubber compound in the vartridge that's affected which may/may not change VTA on the cart? Just a few random thoughts. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 27, 2021 9:44:23 GMT
Hi all - mind if I butt in? I remember the old OC9 needing a good few hours at 1.7g before settling at the 1.5g they recommended back then. The Linn Karma after the lively first batch started out brilliantly and 'went off' as the suspension ran in, the sound becoming more dull before stabilising. The Troika was similar but 'better' overall I remember. The older Koetsu's either sounded right with the system or not and I remember the 'phat' lush tones not changing hugely with use. The B&O MM cartridges which could sound enchanting with lighter music in a very warm environment, were very temperature sensitive, at least in their early days and went bland and dull as ditch-water below 70 degrees (the Beogram 4000 linear deck maintained a 72 degrees under the lid when powered and this was a sales thing back in 1973 even, long before turntable 'sound' was noted). Cartridges are mechanical devices and the suspensions are rubbery I believe. Some suffer performance changes with temperature (measured in terms of tracking distortion and very audible) and others relatively immune (speaker suspensions do too and all this stuff in some quarters about hundreds of hours 'burn-in' I'd suggest is as much seasonal changes to temperature and humidity as anything else). If your Ethos works the way you have it set up, leave the bloody thing alone and just play some bloody records with it  if you're fresh back from holiday, you'll be feeling better too with luck if the kids haven't run you ragged (believe me, mood plays such a HUGE part I've come to realise). As you're so atuned to minute changes in the sound of your stereo, I'd suggest it may alter again once autumn and winter sets in - would be interesting to see... |
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Post by rexton on Jul 28, 2021 19:35:02 GMT
Winter always seems to be the best months for me. Valve's on full glow, radiators on full blast and a decent glug of single malt. I have no idea what you mean about psychology playing any part in vinyl playback.. !!!!!!!!
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 28, 2021 19:37:15 GMT
Hi all - mind if I butt in? I remember the old OC9 needing a good few hours at 1.7g before settling at the 1.5g they recommended back then. The Linn Karma after the lively first batch started out brilliantly and 'went off' as the suspension ran in, the sound becoming more dull before stabilising. The Troika was similar but 'better' overall I remember. The older Koetsu's either sounded right with the system or not and I remember the 'phat' lush tones not changing hugely with use. The B&O MM cartridges which could sound enchanting with lighter music in a very warm environment, were very temperature sensitive, at least in their early days and went bland and dull as ditch-water below 70 degrees (the Beogram 4000 linear deck maintained a 72 degrees under the lid when powered and this was a sales thing back in 1973 even, long before turntable 'sound' was noted). Cartridges are mechanical devices and the suspensions are rubbery I believe. Some suffer performance changes with temperature (measured in terms of tracking distortion and very audible) and others relatively immune (speaker suspensions do too and all this stuff in some quarters about hundreds of hours 'burn-in' I'd suggest is as much seasonal changes to temperature and humidity as anything else). If your Ethos works the way you have it set up, leave the bloody thing alone and just play some bloody records with it if you're fresh back from holiday, you'll be feeling better too with luck if the kids haven't run you ragged (believe me, mood plays such a HUGE part I've come to realise). As you're so atuned to minute changes in the sound of your stereo, I'd suggest it may alter again once autumn and winter sets in - would be interesting to see... Hi Dave, nice to see you posting again. Yeah, i think you may be right with the rubbery suspension. Unfortunately, well never know what happens in winter as it's now up for sale after acquiring the Ortofon Vienna. |
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Post by robbiegong on Jul 28, 2021 20:04:53 GMT
I had two tracking force gauges and they both measured slightly different. One was a good one and one was cheap with a magnetic aspect that messed with the reading so it got binned.
Things do change a bit / alter over time, after that initial 'good' set up, so you then have to go again and once you have, meticulously, and are happy, set, forget, leave alone, resist the urge to mess (would take a long post to explain why) and enjoy the music.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 29, 2021 14:48:45 GMT
Thanks O  I can only recount what I remember from past cartridge models of various makes. Certainly some were immune to temp changes and in your case, I can only remember when you got the Ethos and this time of year when you're selling it. Thing is and PLEASE don't flame me for suggesting this, our mood can change with the seasons and weather and an otherwise good stereo can fail to get the juices going if we're not in a good state of mind. I know you didn't or don't like these, but the OC9 was rather too 'wild' when brand new, but a few LP's at a higher than recommended downforce seemed to sort them out well and subsequently reducing to the then recommended 1.5g seemed to be just fine and stable until the diamond wore to a point (I've got one like this and one or two records it won't now play at all). I've lost touch with Ortofon's huge (I still think) range of MC cartridges. One good thing about them as masters of design is that the performance and 'sound' you get is precisely what they want you to hear from them, as much as the records played will allow. |
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Post by colin123 on Aug 27, 2021 10:24:54 GMT
You might find this interesting......Mr A.J.van den Hul's take on running in his cartridges. 76 Q: Why does a cartridge need around 200 hours of playing before the sound is well ? A: It is the same with cars. The engine also needs to smoothen and run-in. Especially the gearbox. With cartridges especially the suspension rubber needs to settle and that requires some “massage” time. Also the groove produces some extra polishing of the stylus. It is a habit of cartridge manufacturers to adjust the cartridge for a flat frequency response at delivery. What means that after running-in the frequency response has a lift of about 2 dB at 20 kHz. In our company it is a good habit to adjust the suspension with a bit extra tension so that after the running-in time the frequency response is just flat. For the rest of the 3500 hours of stylus life this produces the best quality possible. Here is a link to "Everything you always wanted to know about phono replay but were afraid to ask...." by van den Hul. www.vandenhul.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Phono_FAQ.pdfHours of reading. Have fun. |
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Post by rexton on Aug 27, 2021 11:18:20 GMT
What an excellent resource. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by colin123 on Aug 27, 2021 11:26:39 GMT
My Pleasure.
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Post by sq225917 on Aug 27, 2021 17:30:19 GMT
3500 of stylus time, right....
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Post by rexton on Aug 28, 2021 18:43:17 GMT
I did wonder at that 3500 hour figure. It would be nice!
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Post by colin123 on Aug 28, 2021 19:33:09 GMT
Who knows? Maybe we should ask vdh users, there should be loads of them out there. I bought an MC-One Special earlier this year which has now done 250 hours, it certainly improved after 100 hours and now sounds sublime. They are designed to be used as low as 1.3g once run in, that surely will reduce wear significantly. I bought mine not for it's longevity, which will be a bonus if it proves true, but for it's synergy with my tonearm. Here is a review of Vdh cartridges which I found really interesting, and mentions the 'running in', look at the third paragraph. 6moons.com/audioreviews/vdh/2.html |
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Post by rexton on Aug 28, 2021 20:51:45 GMT
I don't really take 6moons too seriously.
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Post by colin123 on Aug 29, 2021 8:57:51 GMT
I've probably only read a couple of reviews, so unable to comment.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 29, 2021 10:38:01 GMT
Ambitious figures, but would certainly be nice for those who own them to get that sort of return on their investment.
If correct, it makes them very good value.
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 29, 2021 11:06:38 GMT
I gues it depends on all sorts, set up , level of use, clean vinyl, etc,etc. One of the reasons I bought a new ZYX is that they are rated by the manufacturer for 2000 hrs. Micro ridges last long but can fail spectacularly at the end of life. As I found out!
The last ZYX I had lasted 5 years with moderate to low weekly use. With a tracking of 2 g. That's fine for me so I reinvested in another.
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Post by macca on Aug 29, 2021 12:05:12 GMT
I gues it depends on all sorts, set up , level of use, clean vinyl, etc,etc. Which is why he can claim it without much danger of being proven wrong. And who really keeps track of total hours of use anyway? Unless you keep an accurate log the likelihood is either to way underestimate or way overestimate actual usage. Really keeping a log is a good idea, especially if you play rare/valuable discs, since a worn stylus will start damaging the disc way before you hear it doing so. ' |
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Post by colin123 on Aug 29, 2021 13:28:31 GMT
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Post by macca on Aug 29, 2021 15:12:52 GMT
I know such things are available, or you could just use a clicker like they use to count people into a venue, and click it once each side. But how many people actually do this? Almost no-one is my guess.
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Post by lurch on Sept 13, 2021 19:58:22 GMT
Yep run in is real alright. In January I bought an ex-demo Hana ML with 37 hours on it. It produced quite a boisterous sound, detailed and rich but very upfront, I kept a rough count of hrs via a clicker. With 50 hrs on it started to become more refined and by 70 hrs was a different animal altogether. Smooth, nuanced, rich and detailed, showing me why it had received so many excellent reviews.
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if you're fresh back from holiday, you'll be feeling better too with luck if the kids haven't run you ragged (believe me, mood plays such a HUGE part I've come to realise). As you're so atuned to minute changes in the sound of your stereo, I'd suggest it may alter again once autumn and winter sets in - would be interesting to see...
