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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 9:18:04 GMT
I really am asking for a friend....
What is the best way of getting digital music to sound superb from a PC? USB feed direct to DAC, use a digital transport, use a network renderer?
How would you do it, and what equipment would you need? The PC is a silent PC, with no moving parts.
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Post by hudz on Jan 10, 2021 9:42:31 GMT
I find this- fidelizer-audio.com/ absolutely essential to use with your software player of choice, there is a free (but not fully featured)download available to give a taste of what it does. I'll leave hardware reccys to other more knowledgable brethren, but I use an Asus Essence stxii with Sparkos Labs discrete opamps and am pretty happy with it for the price.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 10, 2021 9:57:33 GMT
Depends how much money you want to spend. I simply have Audirvana set up on my Macbook and this circumnavigates all the computer processing and optimises the laptop/PC for digital playback. I get very good results for very little money and this would be a simple as you could get. Cost £80 This just equires a download for Mac or Windows onto your PC and controls everthing and holds your music library. Will also playback any file format Next would be to use something like a Raspberry Pi with a HAT such as an Allo Boss or Pecan Pi - cost £300 - £500 with LPS (essential!) Connection via USB from laptop or wifi from router to renderer. Next something like a Blue node 2 www.bluesound.com/products/node/ cost £500 + Then we get into stand alone DACs with a Network bridge. Cost £500 - £10000 depending how much you want to pay. This is a minefield in terms of recommending which DAC and which renderer but I would go for a Denafrips Ares 2 or the like - cost £800 = network bridge. All these options require further detailed information as to best way to set up and optimise but first I would choose which route /cost your friend wants to go down then look at best method for implimentation. There are other folk on here who would advise best method of connection and optimisation of which ever digital route you go down.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 11:23:38 GMT
He is looking at spending €800 on a USB card, so I don’t think budget is a problem. The question is, what topography gives the best quality sound.
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 10, 2021 11:56:48 GMT
There are so any variables, but.
Buy any dac with snr and thd+noise at around -120db and jitter on the usb input better than -130db and it doesn't make any difference what you feed them as long as it's bit perfect.
Jriver with the right driver selection will take care of the pc side.
Nothing else beyond this has even been 'proven' to matter, not pc psu, not ssd vs HD, not fancy usb outputs, HD filter boards, nothing.
We're I building from scratch, I'd get an m1 mac mini, the £80 usb connected ssd stand/hub, add Audivarna, because it takes care of all the software and has a rock solid remote app on any platform. If he has a load of flac than stick with pc.
Fancy switches, network adaptors etc are all crap unless it's proven he has network bandwidth issues and wants to use a remote server. No server, just plug n play, then forget them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 12:06:07 GMT
That closely mirrors my experience, except I have not tried any of the DACs that measure well. I still have my modified Caiman SEG.
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Post by stevew on Jan 10, 2021 12:34:09 GMT
There are so any variables, but. Buy any dac with snr and thd+noise at around -120db and jitter on the usb input better than -130db and it doesn't make any difference what you feed them as long as it's bit perfect. Jriver with the right driver selection will take care of the pc side. Nothing else beyond this has even been 'proven' to matter, not pc psu, not ssd vs HD, not fancy usb outputs, HD filter boards, nothing. We're I building from scratch, I'd get an m1 mac mini, the £80 usb connected ssd stand/hub, add Audivarna, because it takes care of all the software and has a rock solid remote app on any platform. If he has a load of flac than stick with pc. Fancy switches, network adaptors etc are all crap unless it's proven he has network bandwidth issues and wants to use a remote server. No server, just plug n play, then forget them. Agreed! Especially an M1 Mac mini. Think I’m going to go down this route shortly. My older Mac mini’s will not cope with the RAM memory requirements of Audirvana now . They are both 4 gig and not upgradeable. Why Apple saw fit to solder in the cards on the late 2014 models is best left. I’ve loaded Roon on one now ... which is stable and working rather well. But I ain’t got to start paying for it yet!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 10, 2021 12:51:31 GMT
There are so any variables, but. Buy any dac with snr and thd+noise at around -120db and jitter on the usb input better than -130db and it doesn't make any difference what you feed them as long as it's bit perfect. Jriver with the right driver selection will take care of the pc side. Nothing else beyond this has even been 'proven' to matter, not pc psu, not ssd vs HD, not fancy usb outputs, HD filter boards, nothing. We're I building from scratch, I'd get an m1 mac mini, the £80 usb connected ssd stand/hub, add Audivarna, because it takes care of all the software and has a rock solid remote app on any platform. If he has a load of flac than stick with pc. Fancy switches, network adaptors etc are all crap unless it's proven he has network bandwidth issues and wants to use a remote server. No server, just plug n play, then forget them. Agreed! Especially an M1 Mac mini. Think I’m going to go down this route shortly. My older Mac mini’s will not cope with the RAM memory requirements of Audirvana now . They are both 4 gig and not upgradeable. Why Apple saw fit to solder in the cards on the late 2014 models is best left. I’ve loaded Roon on one now ... which is stable and working rather well. But I ain’t got to start paying for it yet! Has the N15D not convinced you , Steve?
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Post by stevew on Jan 10, 2021 13:40:27 GMT
[/quote]Has the N15D not convinced you , Steve? [/quote]
Not seen it mate! In the meantime it’s been an interesting time for thoughtful reflection on the way forward. So much so that I have 2 things awaiting delivery. A Denafrips Ares 2 and a fancy usb cable. Having now really begun to appreciate Roon, I’ve converted all my Pi players to Roon end points and really appreciated the improvement in sq around the whole house. So the Allo USbridge is really delivering via the mojo and I’m hopeful of the Ares improving on this. So I’ve changed a lot.. but keeping the nature of my audio infrastructure... for now!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 10, 2021 13:46:58 GMT
Has the N15D not convinced you , Steve? [/quote] Not seen it mate! In the meantime it’s been an interesting time for thoughtful reflection on the way forward. So much so that I have 2 things awaiting delivery. A Denafrips Ares 2 and a fancy usb cable. Having now really begun to appreciate Roon, I’ve converted all my Pi players to Roon end points and really appreciated the improvement in sq around the whole house. So the Allo USbridge is really delivering via the mojo and I’m hopeful of the Ares improving on this. So I’ve changed a lot.. but keeping the nature of my audio infrastructure... for now![/quote] oh? Ok....... An Ares2!......very bold. I totally expect a thorough writeup of your impressions of it and verdict. I suspect you will find a lot to like about it.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 10, 2021 13:56:41 GMT
Has the N15D not convinced you , Steve? [/quote] Not seen it mate! In the meantime it’s been an interesting time for thoughtful reflection on the way forward. So much so that I have 2 things awaiting delivery. A Denafrips Ares 2 and a fancy usb cable. Having now really begun to appreciate Roon, I’ve converted all my Pi players to Roon end points and really appreciated the improvement in sq around the whole house. So the Allo USbridge is really delivering via the mojo and I’m hopeful of the Ares improving on this. So I’ve changed a lot.. but keeping the nature of my audio infrastructure... for now! [/quote][/div]
Will be very interesting to hear your comparison of the Mojo against the Ares 2. I feel they will be very different.?
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Post by stevew on Jan 10, 2021 14:20:45 GMT
Has the N15D not convinced you , Steve? Not seen it mate! In the meantime it’s been an interesting time for thoughtful reflection on the way forward. So much so that I have 2 things awaiting delivery. A Denafrips Ares 2 and a fancy usb cable. Having now really begun to appreciate Roon, I’ve converted all my Pi players to Roon end points and really appreciated the improvement in sq around the whole house. So the Allo USbridge is really delivering via the mojo and I’m hopeful of the Ares improving on this. So I’ve changed a lot.. but keeping the nature of my audio infrastructure... for now! [/quote][/div]
Will be very interesting to hear your comparison of the Mojo against the Ares 2. I feel they will be very different.? [/quote] It’s a calculated gamble. If it doesn’t work out I can move it on without too much of a hit. The Ares shipment is due into the uk dealer at the end of the week. He has now pre- sold all but one. I was hovering between the Ares and a Qutest. Still not certain it was the right call, but rather risk not spending £400 extra than spend it and still not be sure. It’s an absolute bastard not being able to listen and compare... but at the end of the day I’d rather take a gamble and enjoy stuff now than wait. The combination of mojo and Roon delivery has been a revelation... made me more adventurous.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 10, 2021 14:45:26 GMT
Has the N15D not convinced you , Steve? Not seen it mate! In the meantime it’s been an interesting time for thoughtful reflection on the way forward. So much so that I have 2 things awaiting delivery. A Denafrips Ares 2 and a fancy usb cable. Having now really begun to appreciate Roon, I’ve converted all my Pi players to Roon end points and really appreciated the improvement in sq around the whole house. So the Allo USbridge is really delivering via the mojo and I’m hopeful of the Ares improving on this. So I’ve changed a lot.. but keeping the nature of my audio infrastructure... for now! [/div]
Will be very interesting to hear your comparison of the Mojo against the Ares 2. I feel they will be very different.? [/quote] It’s a calculated gamble. If it doesn’t work out I can move it on without too much of a hit. The Ares shipment is due into the uk dealer at the end of the week. He has now pre- sold all but one. I was hovering between the Ares and a Qutest. Still not certain it was the right call, but rather risk not spending £400 extra than spend it and still not be sure. It’s an absolute bastard not being able to listen and compare... but at the end of the day I’d rather take a gamble and enjoy stuff now than wait. The combination of mojo and Roon delivery has been a revelation... made me more adventurous.[/quote]I think the Qutest will be in the polar opposite direction the the Ares Be very interested in your thoughts
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Post by emmings on Jan 10, 2021 14:55:29 GMT
Having worked through PI based HATS to dedicated DACS and cards with and without ROON I'm very happy what I'm using now.
The main thing is that there are many ways to address the problem and someone's solution may not work for someone else.
I'm using a silent PC too (AudioLinux as the OS) with HQPlayer embedded.
The PC has a Matrix Audio USB card (earlier version of the current element-H USB card).
This feeds into a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 which has the ability to convert USB to IIS/HDMI - if you have access to a DAC which accepts this input. If not then this bit can be ignored since the unit only outputs AES/Co-ax and IIS.
All this ends up in a Matrix Audio X-SABRE pro DAC - which accepts IIS input.
The USB card has various settings for providing power to the downstream player and I currently have this set to send no power via USB with the X-SPIDF being powered externally.
The USB card and X-SPIDF2 can probably be picked up within the 800 euro budget and could possibly give a level of flexibility for a streaming setup.
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Post by stevew on Jan 10, 2021 15:01:43 GMT
Not seen it mate! In the meantime it’s been an interesting time for thoughtful reflection on the way forward. So much so that I have 2 things awaiting delivery. A Denafrips Ares 2 and a fancy usb cable. Having now really begun to appreciate Roon, I’ve converted all my Pi players to Roon end points and really appreciated the improvement in sq around the whole house. So the Allo USbridge is really delivering via the mojo and I’m hopeful of the Ares improving on this. So I’ve changed a lot.. but keeping the nature of my audio infrastructure... for now! [/div]
Will be very interesting to hear your comparison of the Mojo against the Ares 2. I feel they will be very different.? [/quote] It’s a calculated gamble. If it doesn’t work out I can move it on without too much of a hit. The Ares shipment is due into the uk dealer at the end of the week. He has now pre- sold all but one. I was hovering between the Ares and a Qutest. Still not certain it was the right call, but rather risk not spending £400 extra than spend it and still not be sure. It’s an absolute bastard not being able to listen and compare... but at the end of the day I’d rather take a gamble and enjoy stuff now than wait. The combination of mojo and Roon delivery has been a revelation... made me more adventurous.[/quote]I think the Qutest will be in the polar opposite direction the the Ares Be very interested in your thoughts [/quote] Gotta have warmth...
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 10, 2021 18:38:34 GMT
I massively upgraded my digital front end yesterday.
Got an ipad air, I can actually the album covers now....
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Post by jimbo on Jan 10, 2021 19:16:15 GMT
[/div]
Will be very interesting to hear your comparison of the Mojo against the Ares 2. I feel they will be very different.? [/quote] It’s a calculated gamble. If it doesn’t work out I can move it on without too much of a hit. The Ares shipment is due into the uk dealer at the end of the week. He has now pre- sold all but one. I was hovering between the Ares and a Qutest. Still not certain it was the right call, but rather risk not spending £400 extra than spend it and still not be sure. It’s an absolute bastard not being able to listen and compare... but at the end of the day I’d rather take a gamble and enjoy stuff now than wait. The combination of mojo and Roon delivery has been a revelation... made me more adventurous.[/quote]I think the Qutest will be in the polar opposite direction the the Ares Be very interested in your thoughts [/quote] Gotta have warmth... [/quote][/div]
Not heard the Ares 2 but certainly have had the Qutest in my system for a few weeks in the past. It is highly resolving and is all about drilling out detail. I liked it and feel it had a lot more soundtage ability compared to the Mojo. I think the Ares will be more analogue sounding and paint a full bodied picture but I would be surprised if it had the analytical approach the Qutest had.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 10, 2021 19:17:09 GMT
I massively upgraded my digital front end yesterday. Got an ipad air, I can actually the album covers now.... Nice little device that ipad Air.
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Post by macca on Jan 10, 2021 20:21:44 GMT
I couldn't have that Chord Qutest purely on the looks. I mean that's not hi-fi equipment, it's a bit from off of Captain Pike's wheelchair. It just is:
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Post by antonio on Jan 10, 2021 23:29:26 GMT
I find this- fidelizer-audio.com/ absolutely essential to use with your software player of choice, there is a free (but not fully featured)download available to give a taste of what it does. I'll leave hardware reccys to other more knowledgable brethren, but I use an Asus Essence stxii with Sparkos Labs discrete opamps and am pretty happy with it for the price. Would downloading this change the way I use my mini pc which I only have to play music from an external HD using Foobar 2000
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Post by hudz on Jan 11, 2021 0:08:56 GMT
Just run Fidelizer first and specify Foobar as your player and away you go, just restart the mini pc to go back to normal. All you need to know with Foobar as an example fidelizer-audio.com/user-guide/
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Post by antonio on Jan 11, 2021 4:32:09 GMT
Well I configured my pc as they suggest and have download their app, will see what I think later on since I'm going out now
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Post by jimbo on Jan 11, 2021 7:02:17 GMT
I couldn't have that Chord Qutest purely on the looks. I mean that's not hi-fi equipment, it's a bit from off of Captain Pike's wheelchair. It just is: Haha I have to agree with you, I dont like the look of any of Chords products.
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Post by antonio on Jan 11, 2021 13:37:47 GMT
Just run Fidelizer first and specify Foobar as your player and away you go, just restart the mini pc to go back to normal. All you need to know with Foobar as an example fidelizer-audio.com/user-guide/ So if I switch off my pc I would have to reload Fidelizer again from my downloads? Have listened to a couple of albums, and it certainly sounds no worse, Back on the Case -Acoustic Alchemy is one of my favourite albums to assess the sound and it certainly seemed clearer than before: Dire Straights - Private Investigations Compilation I was unsure about: I will say I've only just got this system and have been messing about changing cables, speaker stands altered, speakers moved further apart and slightly closer to the wall, so this was not the best time to judge: When I've finished, and have everything to my liking I will have to try a direct comparison with and without Fidelizer Thanks Hudz for bring this product to my attention
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Post by hudz on Jan 11, 2021 17:24:51 GMT
Yep, once restarted your pc is back to normal, unless you buy the full version, choice of Plus or Pro (which are noticeably better and more customisable) allows your Fidelizer settings to remain even when pc is rebooted.
And you are most welcome, it's nice to be able to contribute something for a change.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 18:23:11 GMT
I bought the Pro version. It is very good, but will be expensive if you change hardware often. I have used up my spares allocation, as I changed my motherboard. One major component change is included in the price. The second will need a new license.
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Post by antonio on Jan 12, 2021 1:12:38 GMT
Yep, once restarted your pc is back to normal, unless you buy the full version, choice of Plus or Pro (which are noticeably better and more customisable) allows your Fidelizer settings to remain even when pc is rebooted. And you are most welcome, it's nice to be able to contribute something for a change. Maybe when I've finished sorting everything out I'll give some thought to purchasing one of the improved versions Don't know whether my system would be quite up to revealing enough of the improvement to be had, and are my ears up to the job as well? I passed on your link to another forum as well Hudz
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2021 10:19:00 GMT
So carrying on with this thread, but the focus is changing. This is no longer for a friend. It appears that with a decent DAC, you can get decent sound quality over USB. I still want to stick with my silent PC, and as emmings stated previously, he is using a Matrix Element H to good effect. As my DAC has a good clock in it (apparently) is there any point in me using a device like that, or would something like this device here do a good job on cleaning up the signal?
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 1, 2021 18:22:20 GMT
Strange that the listing misses any measurements showing the reduction in noise...
No it's a pointless device with any half decent dac.
I might be buying the m1 sooner than I thought. Went to apply new paste to heatsinks on my mac last night and ripped the fan psu connector clean off the logic board. Should be repairable, but might not be cost effective. No point spending more than £100 or so on it, I'd be better parting it out.
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Post by hudz on Mar 10, 2021 10:49:37 GMT
Just swapped my pc software player to MusicBee from Foobar, I'm still evaluating the sound but there seems to be a better sense of flow and a naturalness, that I have always found a bit lacking in pc playback. Many thanks to MisterC for kicking the grey matter into gear, been using Foobar forever and never considered it was my choice of player that was limiting the quality of the sound Playback chain now consists of Fidelized Win 10 laptop - MusicBee - Curious usb cable - Arcam rPAC or chifi valve headamp - Grado 325i Best sound I have had from 'puter so far. Cushtybobs
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