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Post by jimbo on Jan 3, 2021 10:11:37 GMT
This looks like a cheap option for running your system off mains on clean quiet power?
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 4, 2021 6:02:04 GMT
That does look interesting to my untutored eye.
I'd been thinking of getting a Power Inspired AG1500 regenerator (at over twice the cost).
Any comments from the techie folks as to its applicability for Hifi use?
I note they don't recommend charging at the same time as using it. A bit disappointing.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 4, 2021 6:42:09 GMT
The only issue I can see is that you will not get much time if you connect too much equipment to it but probably fine running a couple of pieces of kit such as a DAC and a preamp.
I would use it on the most electrical sensitive pieces of kit first?
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Post by macca on Jan 4, 2021 8:39:08 GMT
If the noise and distortion on the mains could make it through the power supply to the equipment all hi-fi would sound so poor it would be useless. I mean look at it!  Don't waste money on anything to do with mains electricity. None of it does anything at all. And there's no need for it in any case. |
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Post by misterc on Jan 4, 2021 10:12:55 GMT
From a personal point of view I tend to avoid step down transformers unless absolutely necessary (usually we just fit a correct transformer for the job) as they do have a negative effect imho Oh look there is the fundamental at its usual height in the USA @ 60Hz (yawn) anything above -55dbc/m I would not entertain anyway, plus here that would not pass a CE test either. Emissions way to high even without the power conditioner thingy plugged in lol. You can see the odd order harmonics taking presidence in this plot which is usual in ac and solid state electronics, where as valves are second order biased which is why a lot of real vale tech's feel they are more listenable  Would Been much better for non overlay plot again very selective use of arrows  |
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Post by macca on Jan 4, 2021 12:29:59 GMT
Best I could find at short notice. I think he had to use a step down in order to measure it although I confess I don't understand why.
Anyway just look at how bad it is. If any of that got through any system not using complete regeneration would sound dire.
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Post by misterc on Jan 4, 2021 13:51:31 GMT
Hi Martin I wasn't having a go at you, just pointing out A's objectiveness
At some point this week I will measure the mains here with a dedicated unit and our nice scope and its rather natty probes with a full analysis of the power quality breakdown.
Some questions for the forum chaps, when you see a graph like the One Martin' kindly put up what do you see?
Does it turn you off?
Do you think 'Oh yes those points are higher in that part of the graph so it must be bad?'
WTF am I looking at?
Do I give flying?
Interested but not sure what I am looking at?, but do not wish to ask because...........
Would help me when I am putting together a technical post |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2021 14:04:07 GMT
Hi Martin I wasn't having a go at you, just pointing out A's objectiveness
At some point this week I will measure the mains here with a dedicated unit and our nice scope and its rather natty probes with a full analysis of the power quality breakdown.
Some questions for the forum chaps, when you see a graph like the One Martin' kindly put up what do you see?
Does it turn you off?
Do you think 'Oh yes those points are higher in that part of the graph so it must be bad?'
WTF am I looking at?
Do I give flying?
Interested but not sure what I am looking at?, but do not wish to ask because...........
Would help me when I am putting together a technical post When I see that graph, I think "WTF does any of that mean to me....?" I have a BMU running through a fairly chunk EMI/RFI filter. Every bit of equipment after that also has a RFI/EMI filter too. Is there too much filtering? Not enough? Where is the sweet spot? I'll never ever buy a power conditioner. I've tried three, all three made the music lifeless. I've tried about 10 different Audiophile IEC cables and of those only 2 remained. Mains is a subject to itself. |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 4, 2021 14:36:04 GMT
Intriguing thread.
I've a 3kVA Airlink balanced mains unit.
It's a bit irritating sometimes as it can hum just enough to be audible.
But it's been in use for well over a year or so. Probably 2 or 3 years.
This thread inspired me to take the damn thing out, and just plug everything straight into the wall.
Ah.
Mistake!
Where did my 3D imaging and tonal colour go? Music just sounded kind of flat.
Plugged it back in.... mmmm, that's how it should go! The magic's back.
It's all relative, probably pretty decent without the direct comparison. But given the choice there is no doubt if the BMU is worthwhile.
There really is no comparison.
I'm way out in the backwoods of Deepest Gloucestershire, at the end of a long power delivery line. So maybe I've got issues that most folks don't have to contend with.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2021 15:43:17 GMT
Intriguing thread. I've a 3kVA Airlink balanced mains unit. It's a bit irritating sometimes as it can hum just enough to be audible. But it's been in use for well over a year or so. Probably 2 or 3 years. This thread inspired me to take the damn thing out, and just plug everything straight into the wall. Ah. Mistake! Where did my 3D imaging and tonal colour go? Music just sounded kind of flat. Plugged it back in.... mmmm, that's how it should go! The magic's back. It's all relative, probably pretty decent without the direct comparison. But given the choice there is no doubt if the BMU is worthwhile. There really is no comparison. I'm way out in the backwoods of Deepest Gloucestershire, at the end of a long power delivery line. So maybe I've got issues that most folks don't have to contend with. Nah, that BMU is doing exactly the same there as it does here from what you said. They are absolutely essential IMO. |
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Post by misterc on Jan 4, 2021 15:56:48 GMT
Some good starting replies to chew on both sides of the debate there.
So making things clearer as to what the graphs or results represent and HOW they translate in to real world experiences and possibly what relates to what is actually happening in relation to your listening experiences
Personally for myself not having a mains conditioner is not an option, yes I am going to get you would say that as you sell the things!
Tis true 100%, however those of you that know me understand we do not retail items that do not work in the vast majority of cases and that finding these items is not an easy task!
Understanding what and how each device works is the key to finding a complimentary product to work in YOUR system
Oli
I can have a filter with a bank of specially designed RFI and EMI filters which are correctly engineered to remove various stages of line noise at different frequencies. There are many different types of conditioning / filtering
Understand about your comments of PC can reduce dynamics etc.
Though I suspect you did not notice any reduction in dynamics on your visit last year.
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Post by macca on Jan 4, 2021 17:06:00 GMT
Intriguing thread. I've a 3kVA Airlink balanced mains unit. It's a bit irritating sometimes as it can hum just enough to be audible. But it's been in use for well over a year or so. Probably 2 or 3 years. This thread inspired me to take the damn thing out, and just plug everything straight into the wall. Ah. Mistake! Where did my 3D imaging and tonal colour go? Music just sounded kind of flat. Plugged it back in.... mmmm, that's how it should go! The magic's back. It's all relative, probably pretty decent without the direct comparison. But given the choice there is no doubt if the BMU is worthwhile. There really is no comparison. I'm way out in the backwoods of Deepest Gloucestershire, at the end of a long power delivery line. So maybe I've got issues that most folks don't have to contend with. Nah, that BMU is doing exactly the same there as it does here from what you said. They are absolutely essential IMO. I'm always willing to try stuff, tried a BMU, felt the sound was slightly worse with it in. Possibly because my power amp was plugged into it, but that was the instructions. Still can't get away from the fact that I attained superb sound quality without using any mains treatments at all. Maybe it could have been even better with them? But theory says they do nothing and that's been my practical experience too, with the exception of that Belkin mains block I used to have. That's still a mystery to me. But whatever it was doing it was nothing to do with 'cleaning up' the mains power as it didn't have anything in it that would do that, nor did it claim to do that. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2021 17:08:57 GMT
Nah, that BMU is doing exactly the same there as it does here from what you said. They are absolutely essential IMO. I'm always willing to try stuff, tried a BMU, felt the sound was slightly worse with it in. Possibly because my power amp was plugged into it, but that was the instructions. Still can't get away from the fact that I attained superb sound quality without using any mains treatments at all. Maybe it could have been even better with them? But theory says they do nothing and that's been my practical experience too, with the exception of that Belkin mains block I used to have. That's still a mystery to me. But whatever it was doing it was nothing to do with 'cleaning up' the mains power as it didn't have anything in it that would do that, nor did it claim to do that. Proper shielded mains cables do make a difference. The BMU shouldn't have the amplifier In IMO, so I suspect you'd perhaps get better results by trying it again? Happy to bring mine up at some point. AMP into the wall, everything else into the BMU. That's been the way here for about 3 years now. |
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Post by macca on Jan 4, 2021 17:30:56 GMT
I can see how a shielded mains cable could help but I always make sure I have power and signal cables well separated, even if it looks untidy. So that's a non-issue for me.
The BMU was loaned by NVA and it was made very clear that everything should go through it. So that's what I did.
It had a weird 'echo' effect on the bass. At a bake-off some time later someone bought a BMU which was duly plugged in and again I heard that weird effect but only for a couple of minutes and after that I couldn't hear it anymore. I don't know if the amp was plugged into it or not, might have been Ali's BMU so maybe he might recall if it was or not.
I don't recall it making any obvious improvement to the sound though, but it was a bake-off, it was late in the evening, and I'm afraid I was very, very drunk.
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 4, 2021 17:31:30 GMT
> AMP into the wall, everything else into the BMU. That's been the way here for about 3 years now.
Yes, that used to be my rule as well.
But things seem to be different with my ICE class D monoblocks, they sound better from the BMU imo. Maybe it's that they are much more efficient and so draw less juice from the mains?
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Post by macca on Jan 4, 2021 17:34:43 GMT
Jim was there I think, maybe he can recall? It was the one where someone put on SRV 'Tin Pan Alley' and it got a round of applause at the end.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 17:46:57 GMT
I have to ask this question, as I never got a straight answer.
Are BMUs safe in the case of a component failure? There is no risk of 115V being live on the external component case?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2021 17:55:15 GMT
I have to ask this question, as I never got a straight answer. Are BMUs safe in the case of a component failure? There is no risk of 115V being live on the external component case? Why would there be 115v on the case of the external component? Mine sends 115v down L and N and there is a linked MCB which will trip if either L or N fails. The thing to look out for is whether the BMU has this, if it doesn't, if only L or N trips, the other will still be live if there isn't a linked breaker. Earthing is unaffected as it follows the regs. My BMU has a metal case and that's earthed as standard. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 18:21:43 GMT
So the BMU needs a double pole MCB?
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2021 19:22:38 GMT
So the BMU needs a double pole MCB? Yes. You need one side for N and one side for L. 115v goes down both lines (balanced) and totals 230v at the Traffo. It works very well, but it must have a separate or dual MCB for L&N. Mine has an external earth point too, which I can connect any ancillary device to. I don't though. I will just add that I only know any of this because Firebottle walked me through it when we (he) built mine. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 4, 2021 21:02:22 GMT
When I see graphs like that I wonder what the point is when they should be measuring the differences in the audio output of a connected device.
Then I think, meh, I have over 90db of psrr in my amps, not including the psu, who cares...
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Post by antonio on Jan 5, 2021 1:25:41 GMT
Intriguing thread. I've a 3kVA Airlink balanced mains unit. It's a bit irritating sometimes as it can hum just enough to be audible. But it's been in use for well over a year or so. Probably 2 or 3 years. This thread inspired me to take the damn thing out, and just plug everything straight into the wall. Ah. Mistake! Where did my 3D imaging and tonal colour go? Music just sounded kind of flat. Plugged it back in.... mmmm, that's how it should go! The magic's back. It's all relative, probably pretty decent without the direct comparison. But given the choice there is no doubt if the BMU is worthwhile. There really is no comparison. I'm way out in the backwoods of Deepest Gloucestershire, at the end of a long power delivery line. So maybe I've got issues that most folks don't have to contend with. Regarding hum on your balanced mains, 1 or 2 on the NVA forum have a DC Blocker (less than £100) inserted before the balanced mains unit In answer to Mister C's question, WTF and Do I give a flying! Sorry Mister C I'm not technical  |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 5, 2021 6:11:52 GMT
Hi Antonio
Yes, I have a DC blocker as well. It helps but doesn't entirely cure the hum issue.
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 5, 2021 6:23:11 GMT
Regarding the utility of the graph as requested by MrC, it's interesting.
I assume the big spike at 50hz is the only one that is supposed to be there and is the 50hz frequency of the UK mains supply. All the other spikes are noise and are a Bad Thing?
The point of the graph seems to be a comparison between unfiltered mains and the effect of a device called the Harvester aimed at reducing noise. Red line compared to blue line. It seems to have very little effect.
I'd be interested in similar graphs showing the impact of other noise reducing tech.
Also interesting would be subjective assessments of the impact, if any, on sound quality of hifi gear being powered by each noise reduction tech.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 5, 2021 6:58:31 GMT
Hi Antonio Yes, I have a DC blocker as well. It helps but doesn't entirely cure the hum issue. Thats mechanical hum/buzzing...as in the laminations of the Transformer vibrating. I experienced that many times and a DC blocker will not cure it. It may reduce it slightly but ime it is not a cure. A DC blocker must also have enough capacitance to store the DC. That aspect is often overlooked. The only cure is to use well made transformers, and that was something i highlighted many years ago when i had an NVA Phonostage 2 (Shock-Horror  ) It had 2 power supplies and both buzzed like a bee hive. Thankfully now, The new owner of NVA uses transformers from Toroidy, so this issue shouldn't affect their product line anymore. My own BMU buzzes a little as i got my transformer from Airlink, who i havent used since. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2021 9:12:08 GMT
I have a transformer buzz at the moment. I need to track down where it is coming from, and get a decent transformer to replace it.
It is either the Kin, or one of three linear PSUs I use in my system.
I hear a bit of coil whine when I power up my AG1500.
The Mod 686 is silent...
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 5, 2021 9:14:14 GMT
I have a transformer buzz at the moment. I need to track down where it is coming from, and get a decent transformer to replace it. It is either the Kin, or one of three linear PSUs I use in my system. I hear a bit of coul whine when I power up my AG1500. The Mod 686 is silent... The 686 should be! Got a good traffo in it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2021 9:17:00 GMT
I have a transformer buzz at the moment. I need to track down where it is coming from, and get a decent transformer to replace it. It is either the Kin, or one of three linear PSUs I use in my system. I hear a bit of coul whine when I power up my AG1500. The Mod 686 is silent... The 686 should be! Got a good traffo in it. Two good traffos... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2021 9:18:38 GMT
I also need to drop the AG1500 out of the circuit to see if that is the culprit.
I may end up building a BMU for myself, as I have not found one available in France on the interweb, yet.
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Post by savvypaul on Jan 5, 2021 11:37:43 GMT
Hi Antonio Yes, I have a DC blocker as well. It helps but doesn't entirely cure the hum issue. Thats mechanical hum/buzzing...as in the laminations of the Transformer vibrating. I experienced that many times and a DC blocker will not cure it. It may reduce it slightly but ime it is not a cure. A DC blocker must also have enough capacitance to store the DC. That aspect is often overlooked. The only cure is to use well made transformers, and that was something i highlighted many years ago when i had an NVA Phonostage 2 (Shock-Horror ) It had 2 power supplies and both buzzed like a bee hive. Thankfully now, The new owner of NVA uses transformers from Toroidy, so this issue shouldn't affect their product line anymore. My own BMU buzzes a little as i got my transformer from Airlink, who i havent used since. If the buzz comes and goes then it is DC on the mains. Some DC blockers are more effective than others, but the ones I've tried have all sat on the sound, so I prefer to tuck the BMU away behind a sofa or in a cupboard and do without the DC blocker. YMMV Airlink transformers are very good...but we have found that Toroidy are better, and lower cost (if bought in quantity). |
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