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Post by macca on Nov 29, 2020 12:46:29 GMT
plus there is no advantage in terms of technology. They measure worse and are more expensive to design and build.
Obviously perceived sound quality is a different matter but that will vary from person to person. And system to system.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2020 12:50:21 GMT
It is not resistor to resistor, the name derives from resistance values, R2R definition: The name R2R, was originally written as R/2R, and refers to a resistor ladder network consisting of resistors of two values, R and 2R. ... An R/2R DAC can be implemented in silicon (TI make some) but there are a number of discrete component (usually surface mounted) designs. This is true, but 90% of folk don't know that as I didn't, Al. Especially the yanks ...... They call them Resistor 2 Resistor. Nice bit of info there, cheers!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2020 12:56:53 GMT
plus there is no advantage in terms of technology. They measure worse and are more expensive to design and build. Obviously perceived sound quality is a different matter but that will vary from person to person. And system to system. Oh yes, they measure very much on the downward end of the ASR spectrum, but I'd be very surprised if anyone would know that from the listening. As for perceived differences in sound, they are very evident between the PecanPi and the Soekris and it would be very much "pick to your taste" But there is more width, more depth and more space with the Soekris, however I am not suggesting that's due to the R2R design, as the Chord DAVE was very much like this in a lot of ways in which it presents things. With a proper PSU, I would suggest Soekris would battle it out with a lot of very expensive DACs. And I'm not saying that because I have one, I just think it's pretty f#cking awesome 🤣
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Post by macca on Nov 29, 2020 13:42:46 GMT
Thing is it seems to me is that we can't have it both ways. If it makes no difference to the sound if DACs are measuring above 80db SINAD then where are the perceived differences coming from?
Firstly can we be sure the differences are real? No we can't although in some cases I'd be pretty sure that they are real.
Either I'm wrong about that or the study of psycho-acoustics has some way to go.
But I don't agree with drawing technical conclusions purely from listening alone. They're going to be wrong most of the time and when they are right it's only by chance.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 29, 2020 13:43:43 GMT
Yes but DAVE does slice and dice the music a little more as do all the Chord DACs and all the cheap Chinese DACs I have heard. Funny enough I never felt the RPi with ALLO BOSS sounded clinical or Forensic. I am sure the Pecan Pi isnt either.
The Soekris sounded less processed / clinical and more natural and easier on the ear than many DACs I have heard.
I expect if you put the Denafrips Terminator, TotalDac or Holo Audio Kitsune Spring 2/3 up against DAVE the battle would be interesting bearing in mind to make DAVE sound great you need the M-scaler. So DAVE would be 2 or 3 times the price of the others.
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Post by macca on Nov 29, 2020 13:55:27 GMT
Totaldac was a shambles on the bench www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-totaldac-d1-six-dac.8192/But the listening blind test conclusion: ''My first test was to see if I could hear the effect of FIR filter on and off. I was surprised that this was very audible. In one setting there were clearly more highs. I checked and that was with FIR OFF!!! This of course is not possible since measurements show otherwise and I should not be able to hear the difference anyway. Sure enough, when I did this test blind, there was no difference at all. I had imagined the original effect.
With lessons learned for the hundredth time to test things blind, I ventured into my AB test with DX3 Pro. Despite all the flaws in the measured performance of d1-six, audible effects are subtle to non-existent. However, with some careful listening, I could hear the accentuated highs through Totaldac d1-six.
Mind you, if you don't do an AB test like I did, you would not have much chance of hearing this effect. Instead your imagination can trigger into high gear thinking you are hearing all kinds of positive effects. Me? I did not hear any of that. No change in soundstage, not increase in PRAT and micro-detail, no nothing. Just a DAC that in "lean back" listening likely sounds like other DACs. So if you are buying this DAC because of some magic it imparts due to its architecture, don't bother telling me about it. Set up a controlled test and then we can talk.''
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2020 14:17:36 GMT
Well, all I can say is if you can't hear the difference in tone and space between the PecanPi and the Soekris, you're a lucky man as you could buy a cheap DAC and never be any the wiser.
I'd certainly love to be in that camp too.
However, I'm not in that camp and I can tell you quite honestly that whereas picking between DACs using the same chip like a sabre, would be more difficult. Picking between DACs using different chips is far easier.
They each have a sound or presentational signature, now whether that's down to the Chip, it's implementation, it's surrounding design or PSU.....I don't know.
I've had a fair few DACs here and Its always been the case.
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Post by macca on Nov 29, 2020 14:48:54 GMT
I've only had 3 DACs here (Young, Xiang Sheng and Soncoz) and I also perceived them as sounding different to one another. Not massively but noticeably.
I'm not convinced I could tell them apart blind though. I'd like to think I could but I'd be far from 100% confident.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2020 14:55:53 GMT
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Post by macca on Nov 29, 2020 15:15:30 GMT
Gives me an unsafe site warning.
It wouldn't surprise me that at least some DACs can be reliably identified blind though.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2020 15:47:56 GMT
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Post by misterc on Nov 29, 2020 16:06:18 GMT
r2r's have a certain presentation and traits if correctly implemented and are straightforward to discern, the crux however is if you like those differenices. People like different aspects of the sound spectrum for difference reasons including hearing and room issues so you may find it presents a sound that strikes a cord with certain listeners
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 30, 2020 20:18:01 GMT
As you all know, I have a very real phobia about the use of USB in Audio. From day one of using anything "Allo" related, I just knew that it was having a negative effect. The switch to the PecanPi allowed me to move to the RPI, which I have long suspected as being a bottleneck in the chain. Today, with the help of an Amazon Basics Optical cable and a Droidbox, I managed my first RPI/Allo free digital experience for some time. And let me tell you.....NOTHING is better than proving yourself right. The soundstage coming out of the DAC is gigantic....it's definitely as big as the vinyl. There's depth and scale and best of all....TEXTURE. This Soekris DAC is absolutely stunning. I wasn't convinced in the early listening due to little digital edge, or glint as I called it. It's all gone.... What I have now is a totally sumptuous midrange, oodles of detail and tone! That slight "Pushy" presentation has completely vanished. Fluid and free flowing has replaced it. My word.....I am absolutely shaken from the listening this evening. I really don't know what else to say but I am utterly gobsmacked . I'm not suggesting the Droidbox is magnificent BTW, oh no...far from it but the removal of reliance on USB is obviously the way forward for me. Now all I need is a network bridge with optical output, SSD storage and a tidy android app to operate it with. The Lindemann Network Bridge is high on my list at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 20:59:33 GMT
Loving the SSD anti-vibration support....
Is that a NUC? Often wondered if it would sound "much" better than my audio PC.
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Post by brian2957 on Nov 30, 2020 21:15:02 GMT
What's a Droidbox , and how are you using it Oli ?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 30, 2020 21:45:34 GMT
@cageyh brian2957A Droidbox is an android loaded TV box mate. I use it for IPTV (Internet TV) and streaming from my NAS It's using VLC to play the tracks which is why the SSD is plugged into it. You really need a TV as thats the best way to control it. However, i am going to Plex on it (Server software) and try it that way. I expect this can easily be bettered BTW, it's just a lash up to try for now. I suspect a NUC won't be far away or a little fan less computer of some sort.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 30, 2020 22:32:37 GMT
That isn't the droid you're looking for
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 30, 2020 22:40:01 GMT
That isn't the droid you're looking for Probably not lol
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Post by antonio on Nov 30, 2020 23:54:16 GMT
My quote was going to be 'Oh bugger, now I've got to Google Droidbox', but you've beaten me asking the question. If only some of these forum 'boss's' did as they expect their members to do, show a link to something new.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 1, 2020 0:03:37 GMT
My quote was going to be 'Oh bugger, now I've got to Google Droidbox', but you've beaten me asking the question. If only some of these forum 'boss's' did as they expect their members to do, show a link to something new. Haha...sorry..this unit isn't in production anymore so wouldnt be any point! Just Google it lol
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 1, 2020 5:15:40 GMT
I'm very pleased with my dinky little R2R DAC still. Other DACs are now being sold off! No comparison, really, there's a solidity and sense of reality I've not heard before. Other DACs seem kind of flat in comparison - - dynamically, spacially, tonally. It would be fascinating to compare my MyST 1866 with Oli's Soekris. I'll certainly be keeping my eye out for another used example of the breed. Denafrips, Holo Audio etc, there's quite a few around these days. It's curious how an apparently intrinsically poor-measuring tech sounds so musically convincing. 2 wrongs making a right does sometimes happen! Maybe the inherent imperfections of recording technology just happen to be balanced out, in part, by the imperfections of R2R? Or maybe not.
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Post by jimbo on Dec 1, 2020 6:47:33 GMT
I'm very pleased with my dinky little R2R DAC still. Other DACs are now being sold off! No comparison, really, there's a solidity and sense of reality I've not heard before. Other DACs seem kind of flat in comparison - - dynamically, spacially, tonally. It would be fascinating to compare my MyST 1866 with Oli's Soekris. I'll certainly be keeping my eye out for another used example of the breed. Denafrips, Holo Audio etc, there's quite a few around these days. It's curious how an apparently intrinsically poor-measuring tech sounds so musically convincing. 2 wrongs making a right does sometimes happen! Maybe the inherent imperfections of recording technology just happen to be balanced out, in part, by the imperfections of R2R? Or maybe not. Which dinky DAC are you using Jerry?
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 1, 2020 6:55:10 GMT
Umm, I think the clue is in my post - and a previous post that you commented on!
It's a MyST 1866.
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Post by jimbo on Dec 1, 2020 7:22:08 GMT
Umm, I think the clue is in my post - and a previous post that you commented on! It's a MyST 1866. Dohhh bit early for me
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Post by mikeyb on Dec 1, 2020 12:05:56 GMT
Umm, I think the clue is in my post - and a previous post that you commented on! It's a MyST 1866. Dohhh bit early for me That early morning mysts a bugger 😉
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Post by macca on Dec 1, 2020 12:20:14 GMT
It's Russian so whatever you do, don't discuss matters of national security near it when it's switched on. Or even when it isn't.
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 1, 2020 12:41:12 GMT
Hmm, I'm using a Huawei phone to type this. We're all doomed.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 1, 2020 16:45:31 GMT
More shenanigans today.
I read that the majority of free players on Laptops etc, are quite shite. I then remembered a bit of software called PLEX
Installed and listening via the USB from Laptop into the Soekris....it's rather stunning too.
More detailed than the Toslink via Droidbox but seems to be a little flatter in terms of dimension but I'd not bet money on that.
I've been offered a Innuos MK1 for a very reasonable price...
So a NUC or an Innuos?
NUC has toslink and USB out, the Innuos has USB OUT.
Not sure.
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Post by misterc on Dec 1, 2020 16:46:46 GMT
USB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 1, 2020 16:47:34 GMT
USB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 🤣🤣🤣 Come on T, advice is welcome.
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