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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 14:57:37 GMT
😂😂 To be fair, I am not really fussed about the result as the NVA phono2 I have here responds better to the NVA super sound cord(? I forget the name, single wired version) cable surprisingly. Not. The RG316U isn't the most balanced sounding of cables and seeing as the NVA phono2 has a bass lift from 100hz. The SPOTFIRE don't hide it, unlike the RG316U (NVA cables are made from this) Which sound leaner and a bit bass light IMO. Savvy asked for a loan and as he's been a decent fella, I am happy to oblige. I think I disagree with your view of SC... The SC standard RG316U cable is actually more *correct* than many custom designed 'HiFi' cables out there - and I use them daily in non NVA systems too!!! Many audiophool confections act as loudness switches, bloating up the bass and shining the treble regions up to make the sound appear 'better.' Interestingly, professional cables don't do this either, although the Klotz AC110 and MC5000 can sound a little over-fat and thick toned for a while, but this moderates after some hours of use, I don't know why.
Have you measured the RIAA accuracy of the Phono 2 to confirm your statement about it and if so, could you publish the results please? I'm not doubting your statement, but it needs objective proof really for it to hold water, otherwise it comes across as a snide dig to some people  Surprised you picked those two cables as I found them both terribly veiled. I like the transparency of the RG316U BUT I do feel it's bass light. I am happy to upload a picture of the Square wave, Dave. Although for finer details, I'd have to get it back on the bench some point. I don't have all the kit here to do the necessary information. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 15:14:55 GMT
 That's the left channel. I have the right too but it's exactly the same. Unfortunately, I am at work so cannot rotate the bloody image on my phone so you'll have to download it and rotate it yourself. As you can see, at the beginning of the Square wave, the is a wiggly bit. This is "ringing" apparently. Not sure how a solid stage phonostage "rings" but it's visually apparent. The corners are nice and square denoting very little roll off If you look across the top of the Square you can see at about 100hz, the line slopes up and continues to do so. I'll just add that in no way is this meant as a "dig" or designed to cause upset. The Square wave on my own Wizard phonostage has overshoot on the treble. I've found it extremely difficult to get the RIAA curve to the degree of accuracy that I would like. Again, not taking a dig, just discussing the phonostage I've owned. Happy for anyone else to measure it too. |
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 15:18:45 GMT
Please measurements........😈 Biggy only voiced his oppinion. if you're talking technical then of course you have to have measurements.
Funny really, you get these arch subjectivists who think there's no need for them but the next thing you know they are telling you all about the technical reasons (although it's often ludicrous nonsense) behind what they hear. You can't have it both ways.
if your going to say a phonostage has a 3dB lift at 100hz then you're going to have to demonstrate that if asked. Seems fair enough to me.
If you just say 'It sounds a bit chunky in the bass' then no problemo, carry on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 15:28:02 GMT
Please measurements........😈 Biggy only voiced his oppinion. if you're talking technical then of course you have to have measurements.
Funny really, you get these arch subjectivists who think there's no need for them but the next thing you know they are telling you all about the technical reasons (although it's often ludicrous nonsense)Â behind what they hear. You can't have it both ways.
if your going to say a phonostage has a 3dB lift at 100hz then you're going to have to demonstrate that if asked. Seems fair enough to me.
If you just say 'It sounds a bit chunky in the bass' then no problemo, carry on.
I agree Macca, I wouldn't have said it if I didn't at least have the photo of the Square wave. I didn't photography every thing I looked at and won't have access to the test equipment for a little while but I am happy to get it back on test and provide further information. I am also happy to send it back to RD for him to measure himself and correct if there was an oversight upon its construction. If it's as intended then that's no problem either. I read that Glenn Croft does a similar thing with his phonostage. |
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 15:57:42 GMT
I think it is quite common to do this and not just with phono stages. Lift it up a bit around 100 hz you get a little more bass impact and 'speed'. Most will prefer that subjectively to ruler flat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 16:08:26 GMT
Well Macca next time you pop into Richer Sounds be sure and tell the salesmen you will dispense with the demo but any chance of a peep at the sine wave measurements. Best of luck with that one mate.  via Imgflip Meme Generator |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 16:09:01 GMT
I think it is quite common to do this and not just with phono stages. Lift it up a bit around 100 hz you get a little more bass impact and 'speed'. Most will prefer that subjectively to ruler flat. I have no doubt that is the case and RD has far too much experience for it to be an accident. I am also not saying it's a bad thing. Just wondered if the cable choice was down to the fact that the Phonostage is "Voiced" and wondered if the cable was used to voice it further. As I said, I've read Glenn Croft has done the same and I suspect from the Bakeoff that the VAS probably does it too. What came across was those phonostages that were a bit more bassy seemed to get the better response from the crowd. The problem for me is that the RIAA curve is there to work towards and if phonostages are being "voiced" we are listening to the opinion of the creator rather than the actual response of the curve. As we said, some folk want to hear right into the Mix, and dissect everything and others just want to sing along. It's what you want that matters. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 10, 2018 16:24:46 GMT
I understand ringing on a squarewave, but could never understand where the frequencies and harmonics lay. The rise time at very high frequencies is more what I used to look at on 70's amps as you got an idea how rolled off they were. Just think, Harbeth's Alan Shaw suggested that ALL hifi dealers have an oscilloscope to check for input stage clipping when using CD players - and if a ferret like me (who used to trawl round the service dept boring the pants off the engineers with questions) doesn't know much how to use one I very much doubt the arrogant shits often working on the floor in snooty audio stores would have an effin' clue! My take would be to do a proper plotted response of the RIAA curve and work it out from there, although using test gear to do this makes for a fine old crappy tale, as the Stereophile review of the Croft integrated showed. I'm digressing. I assure you that SSC at least, is a fine neutral cable and using this one, you're easily able to hear into recordings and pick out production techniques, edits and so on, whether it's an NVA system or not. Subtle timbres I find easy to hear as well (ok, I'm talking 'sound' rather than music, but since these things are part of the music you can't really get away from it). SSPmk2 develops this further and I only mention it because it's semi-affordable in the context of a c. £200 interconnect... I like to sing-along while delving deep into a recording! It is possible with the right gear!!! That's why I nearly wet myself when I first heard a Spacedeck for example, as I could 'sing along' more easily as well as follow everything with more clarity than via an LP12 of the period, which shocked me. A lot of gear and to a small in comparison extent cables, tend to smudge these things, or strip the sound bare. This isn't 'listening' from hundreds of miles away by the way, but borne of personal experiences. Oh crap, I'm in patronising lecture mode - apologies. Best leave it, but do double and triple check your references as you go along as I've tried to do, certainly in recent times when my ears can't be trusted...
P.S. The two Klotz cables are revered in pro circles, so regarded as more correct than shiny bright sounding fare - so get over it 
P.P.S. 'A bit more bass' is fine if the bass is musical and tuneful (think of the SPU cartridge). Otherwise it sounds fat and thuddy... I can't give you a tune dem (on anything) so can't try to explain where I'm coming from. Believe me, the synth based stuff I listen to a lot has a LOT of bass under 80Hz most often and if the bass reproduction is effed up, the mids suffer too I find. That's why I'm suspicious of a lot of vinyl players, cos any feedback or excessive drive noise down low really plays havoc with the midrange honesty.
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 17:01:26 GMT
I think it is quite common to do this and not just with phono stages. Lift it up a bit around 100 hz you get a little more bass impact and 'speed'. Most will prefer that subjectively to ruler flat. . As we said, some folk want to hear right into the Mix, and dissect everything and others just want to sing along. It's what you want that matters. Probably a topic that deserves a thread of its own since this simple truism is what I believe is at the heart of so many disputes as to 'what's better.' |
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 17:04:51 GMT
I like to sing-along while delving deep into a recording! It is possible with the right gear!!! It is indeed. If you get out of budget wonderland and into the seriously engineered kit. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 17:21:04 GMT
Macca are you implying one cant delve deep and have a sing along
on a budget...........Controversial.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 17:23:17 GMT
I understand ringing on a squarewave, but could never understand where the frequencies and harmonics lay. The rise time at very high frequencies is more what I used to look at on 70's amps as you got an idea how rolled off they were. Just think, Harbeth's Alan Shaw suggested that ALL hifi dealers have an oscilloscope to check for input stage clipping when using CD players - and if a ferret like me (who used to trawl round the service dept boring the pants off the engineers with questions) doesn't know much how to use one I very much doubt the arrogant shits often working on the floor in snooty audio stores would have an effin' clue! My take would be to do a proper plotted response of the RIAA curve and work it out from there, although using test gear to do this makes for a fine old crappy tale, as the Stereophile review of the Croft integrated showed. I'm digressing. I assure you that SSC at least, is a fine neutral cable and using this one, you're easily able to hear into recordings and pick out production techniques, edits and so on, whether it's an NVA system or not. Subtle timbres I find easy to hear as well (ok, I'm talking 'sound' rather than music, but since these things are part of the music you can't really get away from it). SSPmk2 develops this further and I only mention it because it's semi-affordable in the context of a c. £200 interconnect... I like to sing-along while delving deep into a recording! It is possible with the right gear!!! That's why I nearly wet myself when I first heard a Spacedeck for example, as I could 'sing along' more easily as well as follow everything with more clarity than via an LP12 of the period, which shocked me. A lot of gear and to a small in comparison extent cables, tend to smudge these things, or strip the sound bare. This isn't 'listening' from hundreds of miles away by the way, but borne of personal experiences. Oh crap, I'm in patronising lecture mode - apologies. Best leave it, but do double and triple check your references as you go along as I've tried to do, certainly in recent times when my ears can't be trusted...
P.S. The two Klotz cables are revered in pro circles, so regarded as more correct than shiny bright sounding fare - so get over it
P.P.S. 'A bit more bass' is fine if the bass is musical and tuneful (think of the SPU cartridge). Otherwise it sounds fat and thuddy... I can't give you a tune dem (on anything) so can't try to explain where I'm coming from. Believe me, the synth based stuff I listen to a lot has a LOT of bass under 80Hz most often and if the bass reproduction is effed up, the mids suffer too I find. That's why I'm suspicious of a lot of vinyl players, cos any feedback or excessive drive noise down low really plays havoc with the midrange honesty.
Great post, Dave. And no hint of lecturing, just a wealth of knowledge. The NVA phono2 is tuneful and full in the bass. No problems at all. It's not overblown or problematic, just thought the goal was for a ruler flat response which has kind of altered my perspective a little, basically because the NVA phono2 is a really enjoyable phonostage. I think we can get lost in the specs and measurements, I agree, but you and I will never agree that RG316/U make a good cable lol |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 10, 2018 17:48:29 GMT
Macca are you implying one cant delve deep and have a sing along on a budget...........Controversial. Have you seen my gear? Had I kept the Krell and with the 'friends' I've got (just kidding), I'd have been up for a preamp with proper balanced outputs, the cables would all have needed to be changed for the latest Transparent audio wires, the vinyl sources I have would all be condemned (I don't care, the Dual 701 is a very tidy and quiet turntable still - plays tunes nicely too - cough - ) and as for the speakers...
I'm seriously glad the Krell went to a properly appreciative home... |
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 18:03:47 GMT
Macca are you implying one cant delve deep and have a sing along on a budget...........Controversial. I'll suggest that it depends on how deep you want to delve and it depends what you consider 'budget'. Maybe another topic that needs its own thread. |
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