Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 7:13:12 GMT
Anyone fancy going halves on a set of 6 each??
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 7:14:00 GMT
Did you not consider using rubber stand-offs for isolation? I would. Yes, of course I did . It's a little odd to assume what you might or might not do, isn't it, without first the knowledge of the transformer details and behaviour under load? How many pieces of hifi kit do you own that use stand offs for the transformer? I've checked and the only other piece of kit that I own that uses any is the Radford STA25 Series 5. It's good practice to have the traffo case grounded to chassis earth....not strictly necessary, but this can still be done well enough with rubber washers or isolation stand offs and ensure earth continuity via the fixing threads and star washers. In this case, as it is a properly (over) rated transformer, it isn't saturating or having any electrical buzzing to cause vibration so in this case no transformer isolation is needed. None. It weighs as much as a small boat anchor! Oli, if you need the details of the feet I'll PM you the details. Oooh, feet. Yup, always interested. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 7:17:45 GMT
PM'd
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 7:19:10 GMT
What's odd about it? It's a simple enough question. You could have said yes I tried it but there was no benefit or no I didn't think it would make that much difference. If you had considered it I just thought you would have mentioned it. Hardly a unique position not having vibration isolation. I can't actually recall seeing any preamp using such mounts, which, with valves, has always struck me as a bit "odd"!. I think it is a valuable idea for the PCB and is one i looked at, but those you've linked to are too big. However, Electronumpty has located some very suitable ones. €35 for 12 though......ouch I wouldn't say a 4m 10x10 is that big. There's any amount to search from and cheaper than €35. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 7:22:21 GMT
You didn't specify what isolation you were talking about. Traffo doesn't need it and case has it.
Yes, it would be a good idea, I fully agree, to isolate the PCB but to be fair, you didn't make that clear and I'm not a mind-reader!
I have some 2mm case damping which I will be applying to the underside of the case in a few areas...on my list of still-to-does
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 7:23:34 GMT
Ah! Not that straight forward! Once upon a time, some film caps used to be banded with an identification mark to identity which connection was the outer and which was the inner. The outer connection going to the preceding circuit and the inner connection going to the proceding circuit. This was done to minimize noise. So there you go. Trouble is, manufacturers don't bother with an identification band now, and even if there is one, it's not a guarantee that it's correct. Love his deadpan expressions and deliveries. The datasheet for that specific capacitor is here: drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUGGxyQc1Q6y-8aNBaiyzbwzT380yKuu/view?usp=drivesdkI did read it thoroughly and do not recall a single mention of directionality. Ad is turned out, it was nothing to do with the capacitors as to why Paul had issues with his sound. It was down to fitting permanent loading resistors to the PCB for MC cartridges and then using a MM cart, for which they must be removed. The original idea was for the use of loading plugs to be used but I can see how this was missed, as it hasnt been discussed. I've taken on his comment about a build guide and will make one. 'Craigtone' had offered to do this some time back but he has been mega busy. The point being BO.is that no one ever considers film capacitors as being directional. Which they are. Obviously not in the same sense as am electrolytic. |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 7:30:35 GMT
The datasheet for that specific capacitor is here: drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUGGxyQc1Q6y-8aNBaiyzbwzT380yKuu/view?usp=drivesdkI did read it thoroughly and do not recall a single mention of directionality. Ad is turned out, it was nothing to do with the capacitors as to why Paul had issues with his sound. It was down to fitting permanent loading resistors to the PCB for MC cartridges and then using a MM cart, for which they must be removed. The original idea was for the use of loading plugs to be used but I can see how this was missed, as it hasnt been discussed. I've taken on his comment about a build guide and will make one. 'Craigtone' had offered to do this some time back but he has been mega busy. The point being BO.is that no one ever considers film capacitors as being directional. Which they are. Obviously not in the same sense as am electrolytic. Well I do know that when you measure some, they dont read correctly but when you turn them around, they do. I measure everything, and if they misbehave in one direction, I remeasure them and then that's the way i put them in the PCB. I built 5 at the same time and they are all exactly the same in terms of cap directionality. Paul need not worry. But yes, you are right in the aspect you have highlighted. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 7:32:02 GMT
You didn't specify what isolation you were talking about. Traffo doesn't need it and case has it. Yes, it would be a good idea, I fully agree, to isolate the PCB but to be fair, you didn't make that clear and I'm not a mind-reader! I have some 2mm case damping which I will be applying to the underside of the case in a few areas...on my list of still-to-does I'm sorry I mentioned it now. It was simply an observation! To me! To me! Valves on a preamp board, I'd like to issolate them as best I could from all possible vibrations. But as I've said, it's not something usually considered by anyone,from what I've seen, including manufactureres. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 7:35:07 GMT
I'm not sorry you mentioned it but you could have been talking about case isolation, traffo isolation or pcb isolation and you simply didn't make it clear. Yes, few manufacturers mount PCBs on isolation stand offs. There could be reasons such as cost cutting or it could simply be that the isolation available isn't effective enough to justify the cost benefit. I can't believe that all manufacturers overlook this point. There's some pretty capable and clever people working out there.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 7:38:55 GMT
The point being BO.is that no one ever considers film capacitors as being directional. Which they are. Obviously not in the same sense as am electrolytic. Well I do know that when you measure some, they dont read correctly but when you turn them around, they do. I measure everything, and if they misbehave in one direction, I remeasure them and then that's the way i put them in the PCB. I built 5 at the same time and they are all exactly the same in terms of cap directionality. Paul need not worry.But yes, you are right in the aspect you have highlighted. Don't worry Oli....it's the last thing that would keep me awake at night! I trust your workmanship and have more to concern myself about than whether the film caps re the "right" way around! |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 8:27:05 GMT
OK, thread tidied and still flowing i believe.
Lets stay on the build topic and remove any drama. We don't do drama here.
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Post by electronumpty on May 2, 2020 8:52:36 GMT
Anyone fancy going halves on a set of 6 each?? Yep I will ! Lmk when you want paying. |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 9:14:19 GMT
Anyone fancy going halves on a set of 6 each?? Yep I will ! Lmk when you want paying. Awesome. Pay me now! Lol |
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Post by electronumpty on May 2, 2020 9:14:41 GMT
They are fine, non directional  Ah! Not that straight forward! Once upon a time, some film caps used to be banded with an identification mark to identity which connection was the outer and which was the inner. The outer connection going to the preceding circuit and the inner connection going to the proceding circuit. This was done to minimize noise. So there you go. Trouble is, manufacturers don't bother with an identification band now, and even if there is one, it's not a guarantee that it's correct. Love his deadpan expressions and deliveries. Well the power caps are marked and the signal caps had a longer lead on the outer foil so no issues there. The small dipped caps jut went in nut it all sounds good so I'm not worried about it tbh, Good articl though. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 9:43:44 GMT
Back on track and i'm thinking of various ways to effect input loading without taking the top off each time. Loading sockets are a good idea as Alan suggests, and you can also keep some IC's handy with the receiving end connectors having the loading across the terminals but that's a bit extravagant! I may look for some loading sockets that fit and give those ago. Even pins that solder into the sockets that you can more easily solder across without having to remove the POCB would be a good idea (you just ensure a heatsink clip is on them when tacking on or off your load components).
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 9:56:59 GMT
Back on track and i'm thinking of various ways to effect input loading without taking the top off each time. Loading sockets are a good idea as Alan suggests, and you can also keep some IC's handy with the receiving end connectors having the loading across the terminals but that's a bit extravagant! I may look for some loading sockets that fit and give those ago. Even pins that solder into the sockets that you can more easily solder across without having to remove the POCB would be a good idea (you just ensure a heatsink clip is on them when tacking on or off your load components). I'd go for plugs personally, especially if you are going to be changing fairly frequently. I do have some receptacles that Alan gave me so i can just push fit resistors in to and that will suit me as i dont change carts all that often, if at all. Means popping the Lid off though, but cheaper than sockets and plugs. |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 11:54:48 GMT
Look what's just landed @reffc  |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 12:51:32 GMT
Back on track and i'm thinking of various ways to effect input loading without taking the top off each time. Loading sockets are a good idea as Alan suggests, and you can also keep some IC's handy with the receiving end connectors having the loading across the terminals but that's a bit extravagant! I may look for some loading sockets that fit and give those ago. Even pins that solder into the sockets that you can more easily solder across without having to remove the POCB would be a good idea (you just ensure a heatsink clip is on them when tacking on or off your load components). I'd go for plugs personally, especially if you are going to be changing fairly frequently. I do have some receptacles that Alan gave me so i can just push fit resistors in to and that will suit me as i dont change carts all that often, if at all. Means popping the Lid off though, but cheaper than sockets and plugs. Have you by any chance a link to those Oli (RS components or something?) |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 12:52:52 GMT
Look what's just landed @reffc Great! It's a bit of a beast isn't it!  |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 13:24:22 GMT
Look what's just landed @reffc Great! It's a bit of a beast isn't it! I love it......suits me perfectly lol |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 13:30:20 GMT
Not all that different in terms of footprint I'll weigh the torroid when I take it out  |
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Post by electronumpty on May 2, 2020 13:51:41 GMT
Yep I will ! Lmk when you want paying. Awesome. Pay me now! Lol Ok lmk how much in quids inc postage and I'll send it over. I would say they really helped isolate the top valve plate in my mk1 build, no ringing or microphonics at all. So would be worth using on the pcb mount I think. They are silicon based not rubber, so a difference there from other isolation maybe. |
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Post by antonio on May 2, 2020 14:02:38 GMT
What's odd about it? It's a simple enough question. You could have said yes I tried it but there was no benefit or no I didn't think it would make that much difference. If you had considered it I just thought you would have mentioned it. Hardly a unique position not having vibration isolation. I can't actually recall seeing any preamp using such mounts, which, with valves, has always struck me as a bit "odd"!. As a non DIY'er, it seems to me a very sensible option. Question for Paul, do you isolate any of your hifi equipment (tt, cdp, amp, speakers ect.) in anyway? |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 14:12:17 GMT
It's not much different in size, is it Oli? You've more limited space there but hopefully the copper banding should keep things nice and quiet...best to keep it as far over to the side as poss and as low as poss as with your toroidal one.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 14:20:06 GMT
What's odd about it? It's a simple enough question. You could have said yes I tried it but there was no benefit or no I didn't think it would make that much difference. If you had considered it I just thought you would have mentioned it. Hardly a unique position not having vibration isolation. I can't actually recall seeing any preamp using such mounts, which, with valves, has always struck me as a bit "odd"!. As a non DIY'er, it seems to me a very sensible option. Question for Paul, do you isolate any of your hifi equipment (tt, cdp, amp, speakers ect.) in anyway? The original question talked about isolators but didn't specify what they were for...it was assumed everyone knew he meant the PCB when it wasn't at all obvious antonio. Could have been the case, the PCB or the transformer being referred to. Just for the sake of clarity antonio, I don't aim to justify any responses when they are made honestly and accurately, as was the original case in question. It's best that one's left to rest as I really can't be had with justification on forum threads. |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 15:00:08 GMT
Ok lmk how much in quids inc postage and I'll send it over. I would say they really helped isolate the top valve plate in my mk1 build, no ringing or microphonics at all. So would be worth using on the pcb mount I think. They are silicon based not rubber, so a difference there from other isolation maybe. I'll PM you |
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Post by antonio on May 2, 2020 15:04:46 GMT
^^^^^^^^ I thought the idea of these DIY threads was for all members to learn, that includes you Paul. Neither my post or brucewayne's were cheeky/insulting in any way, yet you seem to have taken that attitude, for what reason I guess only you know. Bigman has slipped a post in whilst I was not looking.  |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 16:11:52 GMT
^^^^^^^^ I thought the idea of these DIY threads was for all members to learn, that includes you Paul. Neither my post or brucewayne's were cheeky/insulting in any way, yet you seem to have taken that attitude, for what reason I guess only you know. Bigman has slipped a post in whilst I was not looking. Hahaha, sorry Dave. Anyway, let's not off track here. This is Paul's build thread. There was a misunderstanding earlier in it and now were all on the same page the explanation is thus: Silicone dampers for the PCB: Good Dampers for the EI Transformer: Not good. Better to directly fix to the Chassis Polypropylene caps are usually Bipolar can be measured and sometimes show a "right way" to install. Caps in question are Bipolar. Now, let's get off this vein of "attitudes" and get back to the bones of this thread....the build. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2020 18:41:59 GMT
^^^^^^^^ I thought the idea of these DIY threads was for all members to learn, that includes you Paul. Neither my post or brucewayne's were cheeky/insulting in any way, yet you seem to have taken that attitude, for what reason I guess only you know. Bigman has slipped a post in whilst I was not looking. Eh? sorry...you've lost me...I am genuinely baffled why you think you've insulted me...reallly, you haven't! I certainly haven't thought of posts as cheeky or insulting at all....arrogant maybe. I don't suffer fools gladly and I did not appreciate batman or whatever his name is taking the arrogant approach that he did. It works both ways you know. Anyway antonio, you have it completely wrong....I'm here purely for a bit of fun and banter with some people that I know and respect, and have known for a long time. If I needed any forum to learn what I need to do for my bread and butter living, I'd be in trouble! I'm not referring to this project which was a bit of fun and was made possible with the kind assistance of Oli and Alan. The moment it becomes a PITA, I'll be waving bye-bye I can assure you as I have better things to do than argue on forums. Can we PLEASE park this. It has worn a bit too thinly now and there's nothing to be gained by rattling cages that shouldn't be rattled. If there's anything you specifically think I need to learn as you put it, please spit it out or why make the point at all? I'm always open to learning just like anyone else as working as an audio engineer for over a decade you learn something new every day, and it's a natural and proper progression of learning and improvement. 'Nuff said. In fact one more post like this and I'll be asking Oli to delete my account. |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 2, 2020 18:46:06 GMT
Gentlemen,
I have spoken on this. Let it go, move on or I will start to remove posts and lock this thread until such time as my request is being respected.
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