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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 10:50:10 GMT
My amplifier is a Denon PMA-2020AE, phonostage BigBottle, iMac for digital playback, speakers Bowers &Wilkins CM9
My problem is the most I can turn up my volume control to is maximum 9 o’clock and I’m talking very loud volumes at this setting. Normal listening levels are 7-8 o’clock
This is when I play both digital files and spinning vinyl. What’s the best way I could lower the gain or would you class this as normal.
I've tried adjustable IMG Stageline ILA-1020 Attenuators (10 dB/15 dB/20 dB) but I feel it muffles the sound on digital playback.
Any suggestions?
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 10:54:17 GMT
Reduce volume on the iMac, is that an option?
With the Bigbottle I[d guess Ollie can advise re mods to reduce the gain.
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 10:56:43 GMT
Reduce volume on the iMac, is that an option? With the Bigbottle I[d guess Ollie can advise re mods to reduce the gain. I have been doing this yes but i just wondered if there was another option but it’s obviously just down to the amount of gain from the amplifier |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 11:03:09 GMT
Too low a volume control range simply means that your input sensitivity to your power amp is too low for your driving amp (preamp or source control) or that your preamp has too much gain for your power amp. Reducing the diginal source output should be ok but failing that, two words for the cure: Rothwell attenuators.
IMG Stageline ILA-1020 Attenuators: Personally I wouldn't want the IMG ones with the signal-degrading switches (BIG presumption on my part there but IME such switches are rarely designed specifically for the task, are out of a parts bin somewhere and will have some e=affect on the signal).
Before I made my own attenuated interconnects (10dB attenuation) I simply bought a set from Andrew and there was no muffled sound or other audible degradation of sound quality. If there is, using those, then the problem I'd reasonably suggests lies elsewhere.
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Post by firebottle on Apr 4, 2020 11:03:44 GMT
Line input sensitivity is 135mV and that would be for 80W output at full volume, so I'm not surprised you can only turn the volume part way.
Needs the gain altering internally ideally.
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 11:16:28 GMT
Too low a volume control range simply means that your input sensitivity to your power amp is too low for your driving amp (preamp or source control) or that your preamp has too much gain for your power amp. Reducing the diginal source output should be ok but failing that, two words for the cure: Rothwell attenuators. IMG Stageline ILA-1020 Attenuators: Personally I wouldn't want the IMG ones with the signal-degrading switches (BIG presumption on my part there but IME such switches are rarely designed specifically for the task, are out of a parts bin somewhere and will have some e=affect on the signal). Before I made my own attenuated interconnects (10dB attenuation) I simply bought a set from Andrew and there was no muffled sound or other audible degradation of sound quality. If there is, using those, then the problem I'd reasonably suggests lies elsewhere. Ok. I think I’ll try again with the Rothwell attenuators. I did think of trying this but thought it would have the same effect. thanks for the advice, it’s appreciated. |
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 11:20:30 GMT
Line input sensitivity is 135mV and that would be for 80W output at full volume, so I'm not surprised you can only turn the volume part way. Needs the gain altering internally ideally. Why would they build the amplifier to that spec if it means the volume control can only be used partially. Seems a bit strange. if I turn the volume to the 12 o’clock position I could have a street party from my front room! |
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 11:21:39 GMT
I have some Rothwells here that I bought to solve the same issue back when I was using Linn pre-power. I didn't like what they did to the sound quality. But it varies with the equipment in use - god knows why as on paper it shouldn't. But worth a try.
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 11:23:32 GMT
Line input sensitivity is 135mV and that would be for 80W output at full volume, so I'm not surprised you can only turn the volume part way. Needs the gain altering internally ideally. Why would they build the amplifier to that spec if it means the volume control can only be used partially. Seems a bit strange. if I turn the volume to the 12 o’clock position I could have a street party from my front room! Makes the amp appear more powerful - people assume that if it blasts it out with the volume knob only a quarter way round the amp must have limitless reserves whereas in fact it is probably close to full output. |
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 11:26:02 GMT
Why would they build the amplifier to that spec if it means the volume control can only be used partially. Seems a bit strange. if I turn the volume to the 12 o’clock position I could have a street party from my front room! Makes the amp appear more powerful - people assume that if it blasts it out with the volume knob only a quarter way round the amp must have limitless reserves whereas in fact it is probably close to full output. Oh right. Strange! |
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 11:46:36 GMT
Showroom appeal. Sells amplifiers.
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Post by firebottle on Apr 4, 2020 11:55:35 GMT
Older amplifiers tend to have a greater input sensitivity. Older sources were designed with small output levels, it may perhaps have been following an old DIN standard for hi-fi that had low mV levels.
The introduction of CD and 2V output levels threw that on its head.
On the professional front a sensitivity of around 775mV is studio reference level or 0dBu, some hi-fi amps are specified at this level, particularly power amps.
It's a pity that not every amplifier is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 12:13:37 GMT
A lot of the older valve amps were at between 500mV and 775mV for max output (including Radfords) and designed as Alan says with lower line level inputs, 0.75 to 1mV in place of more modern digital source outputs of 2v rms.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 13:41:02 GMT
What you need is a nice pair of hybrid monos.
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 14:11:35 GMT
Thanks for the information chaps. I don’t understand a lot you are saying but I’ll have a read up 👍
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 14:12:18 GMT
What you need is a nice pair of hybrid monos. Haha haha 👏👏👏 |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 14:34:56 GMT
I've heard people complain about not having enough volume but not the other way round. 😕
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 14:50:08 GMT
I’m not moaning. It’s a great amplifier but I’ve read the ideal position of the volume pot should be around 11-12 o’clock. I was just inquiring really.
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 14:55:33 GMT
Depends on the volume pot. Some are not so good at low level, channel imbalance. If that's not a problem don't worry. I had the problem that I could only have it too quiet or too loud (that was with a Linn LK1 pre-amp) but the cure (attenuators) was worse than the disease. Solved it by getting different amplifier.
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 16:16:56 GMT
Depends on the volume pot. Some are not so good at low level, channel imbalance. If that's not a problem don't worry. I had the problem that I could only have it too quiet or too loud (that was with a Linn LK1 pre-amp) but the cure (attenuators) was worse than the disease. Solved it by getting different amplifier. I don’t get no Chanel imbalance so I suppose all is ok. |
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 16:19:06 GMT
No you shouldn't do, I looked up your amp and it's pretty tasty.
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 17:05:27 GMT
No you shouldn't do, I looked up your amp and it's pretty tasty. It is. It’s a very very nice amplifier |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 17:54:18 GMT
I'VE only got a crappy Cyrus but the 11'clock mark would be way too loud . And I do like it loud.
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 17:59:33 GMT
I'VE only got a crappy Cyrus but the 11'clock mark would be way too loud . And I do like it loud. I was playing Marilyn Manson - Golden age of grotesque on vinyl today very loud, around the 9 o’clock mark as it should be played. I then saw you playing Slipknot so the neighbours had to enjoy a little of that too! God they hate me 😂 |
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 18:13:41 GMT
Mine have moved out.
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Post by nuff on Apr 4, 2020 18:18:28 GMT
I can’t moan at mine tbh. 1 side I have a family of Jehovah witness and on the other side an elderly Christian couple. Actually he’s the church vicar  If I do play slipknot or anything similar the wife tells me to lower the volume slightly  there pretty good. They’ve never moaned about my music. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 19:29:32 GMT
I'VE only got a crappy Cyrus but the 11'clock mark would be way too loud . And I do like it loud. I was playing Marilyn Manson - Golden age of grotesque on vinyl today very loud, around the 9 o’clock mark as it should be played. I then saw you playing Slipknot so the neighbours had to enjoy a little of that too! God they hate me 😂 . Deffo time for some Manson now then. Remind me to show you all the wifes MM pic disc collection sometime |
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If I do play slipknot or anything similar the wife tells me to lower the volume slightly 