Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 27, 2020 21:15:07 GMT
I have had the Mscaler for nearly a year and to my ears and in the context of my system it has raised the bar. I have never been a box swapper or someone who spends big amounts on hifi, but this was something I could not be without. As a Qutest owner, the cheapest Chord DAC with the dual BNC inputs required for the maximum upscaling, I had to hear it. I arranged a demonstration at my local dealer with the Qutest in a system more expensive than what I have including the top of the range Rega amplifier and thin Spendor floor standers. I was not very impressed and was wondering what all the fuss was about. There was no way I would consider purchase without a home loan. In my NVA system in my listening room there was a compete transformation and a huge wow factor. The sound stage took on a new dimension and the musical experience was transformed. I think the semi omni-directional speakers had a lot to do with this. There was a sense of a lot being missing during the six weeks I had to wait for one to arrive in stock. The waiting list suggests that Chord could have charged a lot more. It is a lot cheaper than the Blu Ray where the upscaling technology was introduced and a give away compared to a 22K pre amp! I am not sure about the wording of the marketing, taps and restoring the original signal, but Rob Watts is the designer I have the highest regard for, along with the late great RD, and all that matters is how the Mscaler sounds. I dont think what it does will appeal to everyone because what we like is so subjective. Also the rest of the system, in particular the speakers, have to be up to it. I have noticed that many of the less favourable comments about the Mscaler are from users with WAF speakers. I believe that improvements in the digital chain prior to the signal reaching the DAC are the frontier of improvements in the reproduction of recorded music. Streaming is a 21st Centuary technology which has a huge advantage because there is nothing mechanical at the source. To my ears the Mscaler is a quantum leap forward. There are also far lower cost devices which make a noticable difference. I recently bought the i Purifier 3, a small device which plugs into the Mscaler (or DAC otherwise), and lifts sound quality. Also upgrading my ethernet cable to Cat 8 was a worthwhile upgrade for peanuts. It is all about enhancing and cleaning up the digital signal. I didn't know you had a NVA setup? Maybe you should mention it more  Honestly, just pulling your leg CN. What the Mscaler does, or more likely doesn't do regarding the nonsense sales spiel is irrelevant really. What IS important is that you got a great result in your own system, which is exactly where you should be auditioning kit. Congratulations on the purchase and most importantly, enjoy it! |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 28, 2020 12:38:07 GMT
I enjoyed listening to one in a full modern Chord system, the latter system surprisingly enjoyable and rather above the stuff I'd been used to in recent years (and not 'contrived' and 'hyped' as I still find some modern Naim systems to be), but the way the dem was done leads me to want to do the comparison for myself, as it was almost as if the volume was changed slightly before and after. Either that or some dynamic processing was also going on - no idea but it was definitely audible, ironically in a Linn LP12 vs a Rega kind of sense, the old LP12's sounding organic and 'textures' compared to the straight laced and all-on-a-level Rega 3 (the 6, 8 and 10 are rather different animals, especially the full '10' player) - EEK! It certainly flattered the recording very much, whatever but it brought back memories of the once cheap 'Dac-In-A-Box' which sounded wonderful but ultimately was shown by a recording engineer to alter what went in on every recording played through it.
Recording used was this, ripped from CD to a local server - Loads of 'timbral textures' and 'perspectives' to be revealed - or altered, depending on your pov.
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Post by macca on Feb 28, 2020 13:18:32 GMT
Dave - the M-Scaler reduces gain in order to avoid digital clipping when it upsamples so unless that is compensated for there is going to be a volume difference, about 2.5dB, which is enough to be noticeable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 13:49:33 GMT
Dave - the M-Scaler reduces gain in order to avoid digital clipping when it upsamples so unless that is compensated for there is going to be a volume difference, about 2.5dB, which is enough to be noticeable. I had to raise the output on my Qutest from 1V, previous optimum with P90SA, to 2V for a similar level. |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 28, 2020 14:47:25 GMT
If that's what I heard, then I'm cross with the Chord rep, as nothing was said or inferred as regards gain differences and I couldn't see if he was fiddling with the remote control as he also had the iPad in his hands with access to the store's streaming music database. I still think the musical 'textural' differences may possibly transcend the small differences in level, but my ears have been so comprehensively fooled by small volume differences in A and B comparisons in the fairly recent past when testing stuff out, I can't any longer only take the purely subjectivist approach, no matter how vociferously argued it is in some quarters - my own issue and not necessarily anyone elses  Maybe I'll be allowed to have a play when I'm in there next - it's on constant dem usually opposite the top Naim statement amp/streamer system. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 16:13:50 GMT
So he could have played two different tracks entirely, and you would have not been any the wiser?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 16:42:41 GMT
Macca makes a good point Chord are notorious for skewing analogue output voltages on their equipment, when comparing any of their products, always best to use a quality SPL mete ('A' weighting and fast response) and set a base line before any serious listening takes place.
Statement naim range you have my deepest sympathy Dave, if there ever was products to demonstrate the futility of British hifi, then those Salisbury pieces of audio aural deconstruction are the pinnacle of their art form.
To use a phrase from well known audio scribe, 'complete and utter dross of the first order' personally I feel it resembles a sub standard JCB engine reject, but as the boss has suggested other peoples views are just as valid
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Post by dsjr on Feb 28, 2020 17:23:35 GMT
So he could have played two different tracks entirely, and you would have not been any the wiser? Ummm, yeah, but I'm not going there with that one..... I honestly think it was the same track file for now - until I get to try it for myself - and I did say the differences seemed more to do with level as much as anything else, hence the doubts in my mind.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 18:28:43 GMT
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 28, 2020 20:41:19 GMT
More taps doesnt improve timing, more taps and upsampling together reduces timing errors through averaging.
The rest of that article is similarly loose with facts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 9:35:12 GMT
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Post by dsjr on Feb 29, 2020 12:09:53 GMT
Look, I'm not a digital engineer but even so, am entitled to a viewpoint of sorts. Nothing to do with the M-Scaler at all, but the ignorant bull talked about digital and reconstruction of the waveform in steps (and so on) has gone on far too long. There's a hell of a lot of maths going on in encoding and decoding the signal. Way beyond me, but it's known and provable so skilled designers can use it, which they do with aplomb. Even very high (EDIT - AUDIO) frequency waveforms are EXACTLY reconstructed if they're below a certain frequency (22.4khz approx in red book digital I understand) and the designer uses the filters correctly. Upsampling can help remove a lot of undesirable 'stuff' I understand and Rob Watts is an expert at it (forget the subjective waffle he recites, I honestly think he believes he has to recite this stuff to please a certain domestic audiophile audience - he doesn't need to imo as the results can speak for themselves to the ear and on the test bench). If you can afford an M-Scaler and the rest of your stereo is up to it, then go right ahead and bloody try one. It certainly seems to do things I particularly like, but I need to have hands-on time with one to be totally sure (I used to find green pens on the CD inner and outer edges and magic 'Belt' foils made a difference back in the day, so you see my older age scepticism here ). Trust only my ears? like eff....... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 13:17:21 GMT
I just love the technical guesswork on audio sites, please do keep it up I really need cheering today, my rabbit has gone to the great hutch in the sky.
Very high frequency waveforms @22khz lol, we do not consider high frequency is a label we would attach until at least 10Mhz maybe more like 0.5Ghz upwards depending on which project was in focus at a specific time.
The mscaler does produce a benefit, not in question does produce a natural listenable and involving sound, well only the ears listening to it can decide.
Is is the only product that makes a positive benefit no I do not believe so, they are other methods of generating improved signal fidelity without the use of Xlinx or Sparten FPGA's, lots of processing power, sliding scale factors plus a fair amount of radiated noise.
As they say on the BBC other options are available and all avenues should be explored first before parting with any of your money
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Post by dsjr on Feb 29, 2020 21:06:21 GMT
I've edited my post to mean very high AUDIO frequencies and apologies for not getting the terms right first time. Does that make you feel better?
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Post by jandl100 on Mar 2, 2020 8:37:31 GMT
Look, I'm not a digital engineer but even so, am entitled to a viewpoint of sorts. Nothing to do with the M-Scaler at all, but the ignorant bull talked about digital and reconstruction of the waveform in steps (and so on) has gone on far too long. Haha - best of luck with that, Dave.
I still see posts about filling in the gaps between samples.
I and others have tried and failed (and I, naughty boy that I am, have been suitably chastised for getting a bit impatient) to get it across that there aren't any gaps as, as you say, the waveform is reconstructed correctly from the samples.
But hey, for some folks analog just HAS to be technically superior to digital, otherwise their ears are fooling them, perish the thought. Or, more generously, as Macca suggests, there was a technical incompatibility in the equipment they were using.Even very high (EDIT - AUDIO) frequency waveforms are EXACTLY reconstructed if they're below a certain frequency (22.4khz approx in red book digital I understand) and the designer uses the filters correctly. Umm, actually, it's half the sample rate is fully reconstructed, I think, so a 44.1KHz CD sampling provides good-to-go audio up to 22.05KHz. |
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Post by macca on Mar 2, 2020 9:00:29 GMT
It doesn't help that all the big audio companies, even Sony, blatantly lie about this, ably supported by the mags and the online bloggers (although in fairness to them it is often ignorance rather than a deliberate attempt to deceive. However you would think though that if someone aspires to be an audio journalist they would at least familiarize themselves with the basics of how it works so there's really no excuse).
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Post by macca on Jan 26, 2021 8:57:21 GMT
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Post by macca on Jan 26, 2021 8:58:16 GMT
Have to say despite trying really hard I cannot perceive any difference with it on or off.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 26, 2021 10:17:49 GMT
Have to say despite trying really hard I cannot perceive any difference with it on or off. You need to actually have one in your system working with your own DAC to hear the difference. |
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Post by misterc on Jan 26, 2021 11:15:47 GMT
Martin
I have listened to these devices in quite a few systems and they do have a positive effect, however for the outlay on these imho you can obtain better performance by looking at other solutions along these lines and with different methodology.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 11:54:09 GMT
Martin I have listened to these devices in quite a few systems and they do have a positive effect, however for the outlay on these imho you can obtain better performance by looking at other solutions along these lines and with different methodology. Like the Mutec? |
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Post by misterc on Jan 26, 2021 13:29:09 GMT
Kevin
The M-scaler in systems I have listened (all with Chord dac's btw) has fleshed out the sound, improved separation, and generally tidied up Chord's house sound to much more agreeable standard.
I have listened to one system where a linear power supply demonstrated a more positive outcome than the upscaler added with a Hugh TT MK2, another system cabling on the mains and digital interconnects again proved superior to the M-scaler than being attached to a Dave.
Disclaimer here we do retail Mutec products yes and I have a vested interested in producing good sound for customers, several customers have traded back an up scaler for a Mutec device when demonstrated in a back to back comparison at customer places of residence.
From experience you should view any of these statements / magazine reviews / On line sites as food for thought not gospel, a home demonstration is required to satisfy yourself the device is capable of delivering what people are claiming.
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Post by hornucopia on Jan 26, 2021 14:30:42 GMT
Very convincing review from the top USA magazine Stereophile www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-hugo-m-scaler-upsampling-digital-processorI don't really need to be convinced as I have heard it in action many times and it is not subtle when it is added to a DAC. Interestingly John Atkinson tried this with 3 different DACs and improvements were made with all 3 and he suggests you try it with your own DAC before lashing out on something more expensive. PecanPi + M -Scaler - i would love to hear. But the price of course is prohibitive but maybe second hand in a few years these devices maybe worth a punt? An Mscaler on a PecanPi would be like putting a SME V on a Crosley Turntable lol THAT SAID IN JEST... Me too actually. The difference the Liquid Music Preamp made to it was something else! I hadn't heard of the Liquid Music pre. But, reading the review reminds me of thisI hadn't heard of the Liquid Music pre. But, reading the review reminds me of thishttp://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nanotech7/1.html |
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Post by hornucopia on Jan 26, 2021 14:33:18 GMT
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Post by misterc on Jan 26, 2021 15:16:48 GMT
Just reread it, ooops |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 28, 2021 5:56:12 GMT
Have to say despite trying really hard I cannot perceive any difference with it on or off. "very, very obvious differences" the guy said. Absolutely none at all, I didn't hear any differences whatsoever on any of the tracks. Well, that vid saved me a few grand!  Seriously, though, do any of the folks who hear differences when using an M Scaler in their own systems hear differences when playing that vid? |
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Post by jimbo on Jan 28, 2021 6:53:40 GMT
Have to say despite trying really hard I cannot perceive any difference with it on or off. "very, very obvious differences" the guy said. Absolutely none at all, I didn't hear any differences whatsoever on any of the tracks. Well, that vid saved me a few grand! Seriously, though, do any of the folks who hear differences when using an M Scaler in their own systems hear differences when playing that vid? Cant hear any difference in the vid Jerry but I can assure you the M-Scaler makes a huge difference. I have heard it with Chord DAVE whereby you can switch it in and out in an instance and the difference is remarkable. So much so you would be very reluctant to listen to DAVE without it knowing how much better it can sound with the M-Scaler in situ. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2021 7:14:31 GMT
The video uses compressed audio, which is why I take youtube comparison videos with a pinch of salt. The differences have to many things that can affect them from being obvious.
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