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Post by jimbo on Feb 25, 2020 19:55:10 GMT
Very convincing review from the top USA magazine Stereophile www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-hugo-m-scaler-upsampling-digital-processorI don't really need to be convinced as I have heard it in action many times and it is not subtle when it is added to a DAC. Interestingly John Atkinson tried this with 3 different DACs and improvements were made with all 3 and he suggests you try it with your own DAC before lashing out on something more expensive. PecanPi + M -Scaler - i would love to hear. But the price of course is prohibitive but maybe second hand in a few years these devices maybe worth a punt?
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Post by brian2957 on Feb 25, 2020 20:06:12 GMT
Ah.. I thought they were only for Chord DACs
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 25, 2020 21:01:44 GMT
Very convincing review from the top USA magazine Stereophile www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-hugo-m-scaler-upsampling-digital-processorI don't really need to be convinced as I have heard it in action many times and it is not subtle when it is added to a DAC. Interestingly John Atkinson tried this with 3 different DACs and improvements were made with all 3 and he suggests you try it with your own DAC before lashing out on something more expensive. PecanPi + M -Scaler - i would love to hear. But the price of course is prohibitive but maybe second hand in a few years these devices maybe worth a punt? An Mscaler on a PecanPi would be like putting a SME V on a Crosley Turntable lol THAT SAID IN JEST... Me too actually. The difference the Liquid Music Preamp made to it was something else!
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 25, 2020 23:50:04 GMT
Or just use hqplayer
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 26, 2020 7:05:29 GMT
I dont upsample anything anymore and the sound seems better for it.
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Post by macca on Feb 26, 2020 8:01:05 GMT
I dont upsample anything anymore and the sound seems better for it. The mscaler is an upsampler though.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 26, 2020 8:10:46 GMT
I dont upsample anything anymore and the sound seems better for it. The mscaler is an upsampler though. Yup, I know this. Be good to hear it in the system and see what happens. I'll give HQplayer a try
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Post by macca on Feb 26, 2020 8:12:34 GMT
Chords explanation for what it does is nonsense and that makes me suspicious from the off.
Chord writes, "The Hugo M Scaler . . . takes the digital file and repairs it, adding back the information lost between the samples, then it sends the repaired file to the DAC. . . . With 705,600 samples per second, a huge amount of important information that was lost when creating the 44.1 digital file is now recovered. The more samples, the closer you get to the original analog signal. . . . The Hugo M Scaler in essence places 15 additional new musical samples in between each original musical sample, resulting in an astounding improvement in the recreation of the original music signal.
My eyebrows raised....''
Yeah I bet they did.
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Post by alit on Feb 26, 2020 8:25:11 GMT
Why does the file need repairing?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 26, 2020 8:29:03 GMT
The question is
If its LOST, how is it lost, and if it is lost, how do they find it?
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Post by jimbo on Feb 26, 2020 8:29:24 GMT
Technical b$%lx can be spewed one way or another but in the end the proof of the pudding is to hear what it does.
I have heard it and the difference is not small.
It was akin to what I think Oli heard with Mr C preamp at a quarter of the price.
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Post by macca on Feb 26, 2020 8:47:36 GMT
But is it really improving the quality of the sound or is it just changing it to something some people prefer? If it is the former then they offer no credible explanation as to how it does that. I'm reminded of MQA.
I notice that opinion is divided over Chord products in general and their DACS in particular. Some swear by them, others can't return/sell them on them fast enough. Although I suppose that is true of a lot of brands.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 26, 2020 9:00:12 GMT
But is it really improving the quality of the sound or is it just changing it to something some people prefer? If it is the former then they offer no credible explanation as to how it does that. I'm reminded of MQA. I notice that opinion is divided over Chord products in general and their DACS in particular. Some swear by them, others can't return/sell them on them fast enough. Although I suppose that is true of a lot of brands. To be honest Martin The Chord M scaler does a bit of both. Like all equipment it is something that needs to be evaluated in the flesh as it were. When I heard the difference when strapped to DAVE DAC it did 2 things. It hugely increased the soundstage in every dimension and Made the DAVE sound super smooth and much more analogue sounding. With DAVE attached you can switch the M-scaler on and off and hear the difference instantly. It is so significant it is very difficult going back using DAVE without it.
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Post by firebottle on Feb 26, 2020 9:07:54 GMT
Why does the file need repairing? It doesn't. The Chord description is utter marketing Bollox to make punters think they need it. IMO what the M scaler is doing is converting to a high rate digital stream so a correspondingly high rate Dac can decode it. The filtering used after conversion is further removed from the accepted audio bandwidth compared to lower digital rates, this gives the perceived difference. This is only an opinion and note I didn't say improvement
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Post by jimbo on Feb 26, 2020 9:14:41 GMT
You can only judge if it's an improvement if you have heard it and even then the difference maybe subjective.
For me it was very significant.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 26, 2020 9:39:26 GMT
I have heard an upscaler when it was attached to the Chord Dave and even though the system was thinner than a super model on a diet, the quality of the soundstage, the scale, dynamics and all round epicness, is still unsurpassed.
What the Dave sounds like without the Mscaler is what i don't know.
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Post by alit on Feb 26, 2020 10:03:15 GMT
Why does the file need repairing? It doesn't. The Chord description is utter marketing Bollox to make punters think they need it. IMO what the M scaler is doing is converting to a high rate digital stream so a correspondingly high rate Dac can decode it. The filtering used after conversion is further removed from the accepted audio bandwidth compared to lower digital rates, this gives the perceived difference. This is only an opinion and note I didn't say improvement Yes, that's kinda what I was getting at lol, though if Jimbo says it's an improvement that's good enough for me, he's the one that's heard it. I've tried upsampling with the Mytek/ Lumin and Roon and prefer to keep native rates. I'd like to hear one of these though.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 26, 2020 12:29:09 GMT
I have heard an upscaler when it was attached to the Chord Dave and even though the system was thinner than a super model on a diet, the quality of the soundstage, the scale, dynamics and all round epicness, is still unsurpassed. What the Dave sounds like without the Mscaler is what i don't know. We should have asked Steve to flick the switch. Next time. It would be good to get back to Steves to listen too his system with the mono blocks and massive B&W 800s. If you thought it sounded epic and dynamic before it is now just jaw dropping.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 26, 2020 12:40:28 GMT
I have heard an upscaler when it was attached to the Chord Dave and even though the system was thinner than a super model on a diet, the quality of the soundstage, the scale, dynamics and all round epicness, is still unsurpassed. What the Dave sounds like without the Mscaler is what i don't know. We should have asked Steve to flick the switch. Next time. It would be good to get back to Steves to listen too his system with the mono blocks and massive B&W 800s. If you thought it sounded epic and dynamic before it is now just jaw dropping. I'd like that Jim
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 26, 2020 12:41:09 GMT
If the file was correctly captured at just over twice the max desired frequency then what comes out the other end of the D to A process can only differ due to reconstruction filter choice and any foldback into the audio region that brings.
Upsampling does not add extra info, it can only add noise above the original audio bandwidth limit of the brickwall filter used in the A to D process and remove foldback.
If the Dave sounds better with an mscaler that points to issues with its handling of lower sampling rate files.
That's not to say it doesnt sound different, just that the attribution for why it does is marketing bollocks.
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Post by macca on Feb 26, 2020 13:02:22 GMT
Seems unlikely that DAVE would have issues with lower sampling rates when you can by a DAC for a tenner that doesn't. Also would that really make the difference described?
It's the fact that they would blatantly lie in their marketing that makes me wonder exactly what it is doing as they clearly don't want anyone to know what it really does.
If I had to guess I'd say it applies a bit of judicious DSP to the signal and that's what gives the apparent soundstage improvement. It has to be something frequency response-related, I mean what else can it be?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 15:36:37 GMT
Must admit not been a fan of the Chord digital at all, but quite a few are I believe. The m-scaler is very expensive I feel for what it achieves, does to make a difference to sound I would yes it is quite positive.
I tried out both the Hugo and Dave dac's with the m-scaler, before setting on the Lumin as mentioned it did improve staging, details and noise floor plus presented a bigger drive to the sound. It seems Chord's marketing department is a bit keen on 1 million taps, still it obviously works for them!
A few weeks a friend of my brothers, who run Hugo + m-scaler, Focal speakers, quality pre/power amplifier and a dcs streaming bridge. He was intrigued by a German device he read about in a recent audio magazine review.
He decided it was an inch he wished to scratch!
He organized a demonstration with a dealer close to him and they performed a one on one comparison in his system, my brothers friend much to his surprise, found the unit opened up more depth, gave a more relaxed sound yet did not compress the dynamics and presented a bigger sound stage with a much more preferable sound for him.
Just goes to show one man's meat is another man's day in oblivion
Given the difference in cost he was quite
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 26, 2020 16:15:44 GMT
Must admit not been a fan of the Chord digital at all, but quite a few are I believe. The m-scaler is very expensive I feel for what it achieves, does to make a difference to sound I would yes it is quite positive. I tried out both the Hugo and Dave dac's with the m-scaler, before setting on the Lumin as mentioned it did improve staging, details and noise floor plus presented a bigger drive to the sound. It seems Chord's marketing department is a bit keen on 1 million taps, still it obviously works for them! A few weeks a friend of my brothers, who run Hugo + m-scaler, Focal speakers, quality pre/power amplifier and a dcs streaming bridge. He was intrigued by a German device he read about in a recent audio magazine review. He decided it was an inch he wished to scratch! He organized a demonstration with a dealer close to him and they performed a one on one comparison in his system, my brothers friend much to his surprise, found the unit opened up more depth, gave a more relaxed sound yet did not compress the dynamics and presented a bigger sound stage with a much more preferable sound for him. Just goes to show one man's meat is another man's day in oblivion Given the difference in cost he was quite What was this device?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 16:31:14 GMT
Hi Oli
Personally not sure, but it was in one of the audio mags last month, possibly a February's edition?
He did make a comment about the other units cost being around one quarter of the cost or close to that of Chrord hence his reaction
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 17:17:43 GMT
Is it a Mutec MC-3+ reclocker?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 18:34:33 GMT
Hi Cagey
I believe that is the device he purchased
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 14:19:30 GMT
I have had the Mscaler for nearly a year and to my ears and in the context of my system it has raised the bar. I have never been a box swapper or someone who spends big amounts on hifi, but this was something I could not be without.
As a Qutest owner, the cheapest Chord DAC with the dual BNC inputs required for the maximum upscaling, I had to hear it. I arranged a demonstration at my local dealer with the Qutest in a system more expensive than what I have including the top of the range Rega amplifier and thin Spendor floor standers. I was not very impressed and was wondering what all the fuss was about. There was no way I would consider purchase without a home loan. In my NVA system in my listening room there was a compete transformation and a huge wow factor. The sound stage took on a new dimension and the musical experience was transformed. I think the semi omni-directional speakers had a lot to do with this. There was a sense of a lot being missing during the six weeks I had to wait for one to arrive in stock.
The waiting list suggests that Chord could have charged a lot more. It is a lot cheaper than the Blu Ray where the upscaling technology was introduced and a give away compared to a 22K pre amp! I am not sure about the wording of the marketing, taps and restoring the original signal, but Rob Watts is the designer I have the highest regard for, along with the late great RD, and all that matters is how the Mscaler sounds. I dont think what it does will appeal to everyone because what we like is so subjective. Also the rest of the system, in particular the speakers, have to be up to it. I have noticed that many of the less favourable comments about the Mscaler are from users with WAF speakers.
I believe that improvements in the digital chain prior to the signal reaching the DAC are the frontier of improvements in the reproduction of recorded music. Streaming is a 21st Centuary technology which has a huge advantage because there is nothing mechanical at the source. To my ears the Mscaler is a quantum leap forward. There are also far lower cost devices which make a noticable difference. I recently bought the i Purifier 3, a small device which plugs into the Mscaler (or DAC otherwise), and lifts sound quality. Also upgrading my ethernet cable to Cat 8 was a worthwhile upgrade for peanuts. It is all about enhancing and cleaning up the digital signal.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 14:37:52 GMT
As my day job is about retaining digital signal integrity (in power supply control) I would agree what ever you can achieve in keeping the pathway clear from induced artifacts is worth the effort
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Post by jimbo on Feb 27, 2020 16:26:08 GMT
I have had the Mscaler for nearly a year and to my ears and in the context of my system it has raised the bar. I have never been a box swapper or someone who spends big amounts on hifi, but this was something I could not be without. As a Qutest owner, the cheapest Chord DAC with the dual BNC inputs required for the maximum upscaling, I had to hear it. I arranged a demonstration at my local dealer with the Qutest in a system more expensive than what I have including the top of the range Rega amplifier and thin Spendor floor standers. I was not very impressed and was wondering what all the fuss was about. There was no way I would consider purchase without a home loan. In my NVA system in my listening room there was a compete transformation and a huge wow factor. The sound stage took on a new dimension and the musical experience was transformed. I think the semi omni-directional speakers had a lot to do with this. There was a sense of a lot being missing during the six weeks I had to wait for one to arrive in stock. The waiting list suggests that Chord could have charged a lot more. It is a lot cheaper than the Blu Ray where the upscaling technology was introduced and a give away compared to a 22K pre amp! I am not sure about the wording of the marketing, taps and restoring the original signal, but Rob Watts is the designer I have the highest regard for, along with the late great RD, and all that matters is how the Mscaler sounds. I dont think what it does will appeal to everyone because what we like is so subjective. Also the rest of the system, in particular the speakers, have to be up to it. I have noticed that many of the less favourable comments about the Mscaler are from users with WAF speakers. I believe that improvements in the digital chain prior to the signal reaching the DAC are the frontier of improvements in the reproduction of recorded music. Streaming is a 21st Centuary technology which has a huge advantage because there is nothing mechanical at the source. To my ears the Mscaler is a quantum leap forward. There are also far lower cost devices which make a noticable difference. I recently bought the i Purifier 3, a small device which plugs into the Mscaler (or DAC otherwise), and lifts sound quality. Also upgrading my ethernet cable to Cat 8 was a worthwhile upgrade for peanuts. It is all about enhancing and cleaning up the digital signal. Glad someone else has heard what the M-scaler does and found that its benefits are substantial. Yes it's expensive but I think it is probably worth it. I have not heard it with a Qutest but I have often with DAVE and as I have been saying it dramatically increase the soundstage. I should imagine there are large similar benefits to be had with lesser priced DACs such as Qutest.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 20:24:40 GMT
£3.5k for an upscaler? A device that approximates the missing information by filling it in with it’s best guess? As my DAC does not do 768kHz, I guess I don’t need to worry about it.
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