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Post by firebottle on Feb 16, 2020 12:00:21 GMT
Transparency, do we want it?
Transparent is a word immediately more fitting to glass, however the other definition is 'easy to perceive or detect'.
I think we could all do with a bit of that condition with our appreciation of music.
It's always infuriatingly difficult to describe sound in a manner understood by many, Jimbo and I have discussed this before.
You can always say something is soft/hard/chewy/sweet/bitter/sour with taste and people will understand but 'soft' sound, 'hard' sound (let's not get onto 'chewy' sound) doesn't really work does it?
The best part of the last 2 years has been a journey, no an adventure into seeking a greater transparency in the system, ably assisted, even cajoled by Oli - El Capitain himself.
(Thanks Oli for the cajoling, it's been worth it)
OK so what has been the block to greater transparency I hear you asking?
A lot is the simple answer. I have said before I am convinced it is all down to reducing intermodulation distortion (IMD), however that is created.
Harmonic distortion can be and is tolerated by the hearing process due to its non grating sound.
IMD creates spurious frequencies that are not harmonically related to the music, even at very low level this masks low level detail that is in the music and hence spoils the realism.
Anything that prevents perfect signal flow at all frequencies (PFAAF) can result in IMD in my opinion.
How can a cable that gives a flat and un-involving sound be replaced by another that lets all the detail through? It's only wire after all, ha!
Think of the cable as a link in the chain then reflect that all links need to be strong for the chain to work. The first cable is weaker than the second in this analogy.
Which raises another point that all links in the audio chain need to be excellent to even show that one can be less so.
Take the Alps Blue volume control, it's a very widely used part but has been proven to be a weak link. IMO it is the mechanical contact between dis-similar materials that spoils things, as this has been shown to be a non-linear contact. Perhaps the reason for stepped attenuators better performance is the contacts being similar material?
Back to the cable, it isn't just the conductor that influences the PFAAF, the dielectric also has an influence. 'It's only audio frequencies' you may be thinking but the actual level of the micro detail that provides the realism is incredibly small and the effect the conductor and dielectric have at this level is way beyond the performance of measurement equipment IMO.
So it's conjecture to the actual mechanisms but I'll go along with the 'crystal boundaries' belief.
Cable changes have made big differences when Onin Continuous Cast wire has been used, so the whole system is now using it. A big up for Spotfire cables.
Small changes have been made to the pre and phono circuit designs to improve linearity, hence lowering IMD. All active stages, be they valve, transistor or chip, have a level of non-linearity and hence distortion. Have you ever seen a review that reports zero distortion? No me neither.
However modern Dac designs are now achieving really low IMD figures and with the inclusion of the Neurochrome amplifiers in the system I now have really high levels of transparency.
Job done?
Is it ever? I am enjoying the music more than ever though.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 16, 2020 12:13:13 GMT
Yes indeed Alan ' Transparency' has been one of the guiding principles by which I measure anything I hear.
It is a difficult concept but put simply it is that lack of awareness of electronics in the audio chain and this includes speakers as much as the rest of the equipment used.
The closer you feel connected to the performer, instruments or music without the equipment drawing attention to itself the more transparent a system is which is I believe the ultimate goal.
As we know everything has a sound and 'everything matters' and it is the careful selection of components in the audio chain that results in producing transparency.
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Post by macca on Feb 16, 2020 12:23:35 GMT
OK so what has been the block to greater transparency I hear you asking? A lot is the simple answer. I have said before I am convinced it is all down to reducing intermodulation distortion (IMD), however that is created. Harmonic distortion can be and is tolerated by the hearing process due to its non grating sound. IMD creates spurious frequencies that are not harmonically related to the music, even at very low level this masks low level detail that is in the music and hence spoils the realism. Anything that prevents perfect signal flow at all frequencies (PFAAF) can result in IMD in my opinion. How can a cable that gives a flat and un-involving sound be replaced by another that lets all the detail through? It's only wire after all, ha! But IMD and THD are related so if you have THD you must have IMD too - and vice versa. THD may be aurally benign in a lot of cases but even if it is if you have the THD you must have the nasty IMD too. You are saying that some cables introduce IMD? I agree that sometimes the cables can be the difference between 'sounds okay' and 'wow listen to that.' Not convinced that this cannot be measured, is it not more likely that the thresholds of what levels of noise/distortion is considered inaudible are maybe too generous? I have often wondered if that might be the case. I have heard some mega money systems at shows that just sounded 'Okay' despite attention being paid to everything including mains cables, mains regeneration, cable lifters, isolation devices and so on. Then you go in the next room where it is just source, amp and speakers and nothing else and yet the 'transparency' is there, a quite obvious difference. What is responsible for that step up? It doesn't seem like anyone knows for sure. If we could solve that we could solve hi-fi! |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 16, 2020 13:34:15 GMT
Transparency, do we want it? Transparent is a word immediately more fitting to glass, however the other definition is 'easy to perceive or detect'. I think we could all do with a bit of that condition with our appreciation of music. It's always infuriatingly difficult to describe sound in a manner understood by many, Jimbo and I have discussed this before. You can always say something is soft/hard/chewy/sweet/bitter/sour with taste and people will understand but 'soft' sound, 'hard' sound (let's not get onto 'chewy' sound) doesn't really work does it? The best part of the last 2 years has been a journey, no an adventure into seeking a greater transparency in the system, ably assisted, even cajoled by Oli - El Capitain himself. (Thanks Oli for the cajoling, it's been worth it) OK so what has been the block to greater transparency I hear you asking? A lot is the simple answer. I have said before I am convinced it is all down to reducing intermodulation distortion (IMD), however that is created. Harmonic distortion can be and is tolerated by the hearing process due to its non grating sound. IMD creates spurious frequencies that are not harmonically related to the music, even at very low level this masks low level detail that is in the music and hence spoils the realism. Anything that prevents perfect signal flow at all frequencies (PFAAF) can result in IMD in my opinion. How can a cable that gives a flat and un-involving sound be replaced by another that lets all the detail through? It's only wire after all, ha! Think of the cable as a link in the chain then reflect that all links need to be strong for the chain to work. The first cable is weaker than the second in this analogy. Which raises another point that all links in the audio chain need to be excellent to even show that one can be less so. Take the Alps Blue volume control, it's a very widely used part but has been proven to be a weak link. IMO it is the mechanical contact between dis-similar materials that spoils things, as this has been shown to be a non-linear contact. Perhaps the reason for stepped attenuators better performance is the contacts being similar material? Back to the cable, it isn't just the conductor that influences the PFAAF, the dielectric also has an influence. 'It's only audio frequencies' you may be thinking but the actual level of the micro detail that provides the realism is incredibly small and the effect the conductor and dielectric have at this level is way beyond the performance of measurement equipment IMO. So it's conjecture to the actual mechanisms but I'll go along with the 'crystal boundaries' belief. Cable changes have made big differences when Onin Continuous Cast wire has been used, so the whole system is now using it. A big up for Spotfire cables. Small changes have been made to the pre and phono circuit designs to improve linearity, hence lowering IMD. All active stages, be they valve, transistor or chip, have a level of non-linearity and hence distortion. Have you ever seen a review that reports zero distortion? No me neither. However modern Dac designs are now achieving really low IMD figures and with the inclusion of the Neurochrome amplifiers in the system I now have really high levels of transparency. Job done? Is it ever? I am enjoying the music more than ever though. Transparency........ Oh, how wrong we were ay! Yup, I seemed to spend more time and money going in all the wrong directions! I wouldnt change the journey I've been on, and let's be fair Al, we've pushed each other along the path and it's been great fun. Expensive, but fun. Trouble with Transparency is that you dont know if you have it or not, until you actually hear it. Take the PecanPi....I felt it was supremely transparent next to the Allo Boss and Katana, but upon revisiting the PecanPi sincevthe Ian Canada Dac visited, it no longer sounds as transparent vs that. Ok, it's not as rich or bold as the PP but there was certainly a degree of absolute detail it isn't doing as well as the ICDAC But where do you stop? I mean my feeling is that the PecanPi has more appeal to me tonally, but I cant ignore the fact it was outperformed in detail. Can things become too transparent and lose the ability to communicate? My experience with Chord gear certainly suggests so.. |
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Post by nonuffin on Feb 16, 2020 15:58:57 GMT
A few years ago now I reviewed a DAC/pre called the "Etalon Solo" which really was transparent and highly detailed, so much so it was very fatiguing to listen to, as all that fine detail was relentless and rather unforgiving. While I admired the amount of design prowess that went into it, it churned out an endless conveyor belt of detail that actually became hard work to listen to, so my listening sessions were more of a trial than a pleasure.
That component made me realise that the pursuit of low noise and fine detail isn't the be-all and end-all of hi-fi music reproduction.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 16, 2020 16:31:02 GMT
We're not all after the same thing. Some people want transparency, recording warts and all, some just want more than they have, and some want a particular balance of sound that sounds right to them.
I'm at the far end, I dont care if transparency exposes poor recordings, I'll put up with that for the greater insight into the good ones.
Thd is the sum of all distortion at multiples of the signal frequency. Imd is the creation of new frequencies within the output that fall between integers of the signal frequency.
Ie you play a 1khz and 10khz signal and get added 2khz, 3khz and 20khz that's thd.
Play the same and get added 9khz and 11khz that's imd.
2nd harmonic occurs naturally, all acoustic stringed instruments have overtones at the 2nd harmonic of the string vibration frequencies, that's what gives them their unique and easily recognisable timbre. That's how they recreate instruments on synths by preprogramming in specific blends of harmonics onto whatever you play in the keyboard.
So while not good, thd is generally less bad than imd.
And cables dont create imd, they just apply very mild filtering according to their bulk properties. Ime.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 16, 2020 17:08:57 GMT
A few years ago now I reviewed a DAC/pre called the "Etalon Solo" which really was transparent and highly detailed, so much so it was very fatiguing to listen to, as all that fine detail was relentless and rather unforgiving. While I admired the amount of design prowess that went into it, it churned out an endless conveyor belt of detail that actually became hard work to listen to, so my listening sessions were more of a trial than a pleasure. That component made me realise that the pursuit of low noise and fine detail isn't the be-all and end-all of hi-fi music reproduction. I think that ties in perfectly with Simon's point. From a personal perspective, I'd like a balance between the ICDAC and the PP. That would be a cracker |
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Post by firebottle on Feb 16, 2020 18:00:52 GMT
And cables don't create imd, they just apply very mild filtering according to their bulk properties. Ime. I have to disagree with you there Simon, from what I have heard on comparisons. Perhaps it's not IMD but I think there is more to it. |
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 16, 2020 20:29:57 GMT
I've been chasing transparency for decades.
Generally making small steps forward at a time.
But for me, like nonuffin, over the last few years I have found that it can go too far.
His 'endless conveyor belt of detail that actually became hard work to listen to' is an excellent way of putting it. I've found that, weirdly, it can make me lose interest in the music.
For now, at least, I've moved away from the increasingly transparent progression of new latest-tech DACs and have found musical satisfaction in 20 year old tech using 24-bit Delta-Sigma conversion in the form of Lexicon AV processors incorporating DAC and preamp functions. For me they provide an excellent balance of detail, transparency, soundstage envelopment and natural musical 'warmth'. I am forgetting about the gear and simply enjoying the musical journey, which is an unusual state of affairs for a normally enthusiastic boxswapper!
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 16, 2020 20:33:58 GMT
Oli, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 16, 2020 20:42:18 GMT
Oli, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. What we agreeing to disagree about? The DAC thing?? It's the personal choice thing isnt it. I would like to hear the ICDAC again with your preferred output on it. I certainly wouldn't turn one down btw. |
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 16, 2020 20:43:43 GMT
I think Simon was referring to Al's last post, not yours, Oli.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 16, 2020 21:01:14 GMT
I think Simon was referring to Al's last post, not yours, Oli. Oh, that makes more sense lol |
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Post by firebottle on Feb 16, 2020 21:22:06 GMT
Oli, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. That's no problem. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 17, 2020 1:26:23 GMT
No, I was referring to Oli's cable post.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 17, 2020 8:47:52 GMT
No, I was referring to Oli's cable post. I'm confused....... |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 17, 2020 12:07:56 GMT
I was saying that we disagree on the effects of cables, and their causes.
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Post by firebottle on Feb 17, 2020 12:19:39 GMT
But that was me Simon.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 17, 2020 12:57:16 GMT
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 17, 2020 18:36:49 GMT
Now I'm confused
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Post by alit on Feb 17, 2020 18:38:19 GMT
There’s a website for that. :-)
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