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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 12:43:13 GMT
Does anybody think there will be a benefit from using OCC RCA plugs with an OCC cable?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 15:26:24 GMT
Does anybody think there will be a benefit from using OCC RCA plugs with an OCC cable? I trialed some MPS pioneer ones vs the KLEs. I was unsure whether the difference I heard was due to the OCC centre pin or the plating being different. Obviously, Jez will Sh#t a brick and say its not possible but it is what it is. Ultimately I stuck with KLE because I think they are awesome and I didn't have to saw the arse end off them to make the cable fit. The MPS didnt have big enough cable entry. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 15:34:28 GMT
Obviously it will make no difference and only those who know less about electricity than my cat would think otherwise.
Literally impossible for a phono plug to make a difference under any circumstances.
"Obviously, Jez will Sh#t a brick and say its not possible but it is what it is." Only in your imagination.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 31, 2019 16:28:02 GMT
What about no phono plugs....hard wiring or switching to SMAs or another connector? Any objective difference?
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 31, 2019 17:01:16 GMT
The different impedance of different connectors tion could affect the sound in some circumstances. What I can say with absolute certainty is that the best connection is no connection. No plug can be better than no plug at all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 8:23:44 GMT
I was looking at Neotech plugs, to fit a Neotech OCC coax for a new digital cable.
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Post by bourneendboy on Nov 1, 2019 12:17:08 GMT
I'm currently using a Mogami 2534 interconnect with Neutrik Rean connectors.
In my system this sounds far more preferable than the RFC cable it replaced at 5 times the price. The RFC cable had KLE plugs that look nice, but were too tight on my kit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 13:18:31 GMT
What about no phono plugs....hard wiring or switching to SMAs or another connector? Any objective difference? No non whatsoever. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 13:21:35 GMT
Surely one joint less would have a minor impact in the signal path, especially from an MC cartridge?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 13:52:45 GMT
The different impedance of different connectors tion could affect the sound in some circumstances. What I can say with absolute certainty is that the best connection is no connection. No plug can be better than no plug at all. Nope. Constant impedance plugs and sockets are only really relevant for RF above about 100MHz. For line level connections any old plug no matter what it is and no matter how crap will be absolutely fine and make no difference whatsoever providing it is clean, not corroded and makes a tight enough physical connection to not be in any way intermittent. There will be zero difference between the cheapest nickel plated 30p each phono sockets and the most expensive turned from brass and gold plated ones so long as the cheap one is kept free from corrosion... which is where gold plating helps. For the OP as he's using it for a digital connection what matters is that the coax is 75 Ohm. RG59 spec coax will do very nicely and is dirt cheap. This IS an RF spec but it's to do with preventing reflections bouncing up and down the coax. Phono connectors are not specified for RF, their name comes from exactly what they were first used for. They were a product from RCA and originally used to connect an external "phonograph/phonogram" (record deck/TT) to the aux in socket of a valve radio, which would be labelled "Phono", hence phono plugs. Circa 1935 ish. As it happens though... their physical dimensions mean that they are in fact close enough to 75 Ohm in their "characteristic impedance" as makes no difference! A happy accident... For the sake of accuracy and sanity, no you can't use a multimeter etc and find a reading of 75 Ohm's here! Both the plugs and the 75 Ohm coax will read open circuit if you put a meter between the inner and outer conductors unless they are faulty. There is no actual 75 Ohm resistance! What I'm talking about is "characteristic impedance", a spec which is only relevant at radio frequencies. The curious should google transmission line theory. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 14:21:57 GMT
Surely one joint less would have a minor impact in the signal path, especially from an MC cartridge? See above for my comments at line level. For an MC cart all the connection from the cart, headshell to arm tube, the arm base to arm lead and the phono plugs are a very bad idea! The combination of very low output AND very low impedance is the issue. Even the thinness of the internal arm wiring causing it to have notable resistance can be an issue in some circumstances. Even here though such things as whether the plug/socket is made from OFC or 9n's purity copper and all that bollox is of no impact. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 18:08:39 GMT
Obviously it will make no difference and only those who know less about electricity than my cat would think otherwise. Literally impossible for a phono plug to make a difference under any circumstances. "Obviously, Jez will Sh#t a brick and say its not possible but it is what it is." Only in your imagination. Continue to throw insults around Jez, and you'll be on your way out. I've already told you, we don't do that here. My opinion is valid, you can disagree but don't be a twat about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 18:32:02 GMT
Be an help if we had a clue as to who that is aimed at?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 18:42:22 GMT
Be an help if we had a clue as to who that is aimed at? Quite obvious seeing as I've been quoted. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 19:56:38 GMT
Obviously it will make no difference and only those who know less about electricity than my cat would think otherwise. Literally impossible for a phono plug to make a difference under any circumstances. "Obviously, Jez will Sh#t a brick and say its not possible but it is what it is." Only in your imagination. Continue to throw insults around Jez, and you'll be on your way out. I've already told you, we don't do that here. My opinion is valid, you can disagree but don't be a twat about it. You really think your opinions, on a matter of electronic engineering, are as valid as those of an electronic engineer? After admitting several times to having little knowledge of the subject.... Do you consider you own medical opinion as valid as that of your doctor as well? What actually is the point of a site for hi fi enthusiasts where it's OK, encouraged even, to talk nonsense about the subject... but if you happen to actually be an industry professional with decades of experience you are not to point out that its nonsense... You couldn't make it up! Although when it comes to electronics and the laws of physics it seems you actually do make it up! Would you expect an automotive engineer to say nowt about it if someone on a car forum suggests that square wheels are the way forward? What opinion would you expect said automotive engineer to have about the people into square wheels? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 20:00:06 GMT
So, I've just butchered a perfectly good cable to make two cables.
One has MPS gold plated RCAs on one end and gold plated Tellurium Copper XLR's on the other end.
The second cable has KLE Copper Harmony plugs on one end and the exact same gold plated Tellurium copper XLRs as the first cables at the other end.
I've just listened to "Silent Passage" by Marlon Williams 6 times. 3 with each set and with the KLE plugs on the Spotfire cables, it sounds like a different fucking mix altogether.
The cables with the MPS plugs have a sharp leading edge and the KLE finished cables have a much fuller sound.
Its not my imagination. I've just blind tested my 7 year old and even he can tell if it's the same or different. I asked him if it was the same or different on 5 occasions and he was spot on 5/5 times. Then he got bored wandered off.
Sunday, I will blind test a member of AoS and see if he can here anything between the two. I will not even tell him what I'm doing.
I don't care what anyone tells me, plugs make a difference.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 20:07:58 GMT
Continue to throw insults around Jez, and you'll be on your way out. I've already told you, we don't do that here. My opinion is valid, you can disagree but don't be a twat about it. You really think your opinions, on a matter of electronic engineering, are as valid as those of an electronic engineer? After admitting several times to having little knowledge of the subject.... Do you consider you own medical opinion as valid as that of your doctor as well? What actually is the point of a site for hi fi enthusiasts where it's OK, encouraged even, to talk nonsense about the subject... but if you happen to actually be an industry professional with decades of experience you are not to point out that its nonsense... You couldn't make it up! Although when it comes to electronics and the laws of physics it seems you actually do make it up! Would you expect an automotive engineer to say nowt about it if someone on a car forum suggests that square wheels are the way forward? What opinion would you expect said automotive engineer to have about the people into square wheels? Jez, You are not the almighty lord and saviour of HiFi. If I am telling you I hear a difference, that's because I am hearing a difference. If you can't, that isn't my problem. Your attitude of elitism and high and mighty "Oooh look at me, I'm an engineer" is about as helpful as a C#nt on a nun. I hear what I hear and you, nor anyone else has the right to to tell me I don't. Read the rules of the forum Jez. It's there in black and white and declaring people are thicker than your cat for not agreeing with you, Is a fast track way off the forum. I told you before, hifi is more than just electrons. The way people process sound varies from person to person. It's entirely acceptable to think I hear things you don't and vice versa. I have never told you what you hear, so pack it in. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 2, 2019 0:51:06 GMT
It’s that whole objectivist/subjectivist debate we’ve seen many times. As long as neither side invades the other’s territory, there doesn’t need to be dispute.
This subjectivist says “I hear X so please don’t tell me I don’t”
The objectivist/engineer says “there is no scientific basis for X to affect output , so please don’t tell me I’m wrong about the science”.
Both statements are fine and IMO should be respected. It’s when we get into the realms of questioning the other persons experience, honesty, intelligence, taste etc that it gets fractious. We CAN all get along with a bit of respecting the other person’s boundaries and IMO forums are far better for it if we do.
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Post by brian2957 on Nov 2, 2019 8:55:16 GMT
So, I've just butchered a perfectly good cable to make two cables. One has MPS gold plated RCAs on one end and gold plated Tellurium Copper XLR's on the other end. The second cable has KLE Copper Harmony plugs on one end and the exact same gold plated Tellurium copper XLRs as the first cables at the other end. I've just listened to "Silent Passage" by Marlon Williams 6 times. 3 with each set and with the KLE plugs on the Spotfire cables, it sounds like a different fucking mix altogether. The cables with the MPS plugs have a sharp leading edge and the KLE finished cables have a much fuller sound. Its not my imagination. I've just blind tested my 7 year old and even he can tell if it's the same or different. I asked him if it was the same or different on 5 occasions and he was spot on 5/5 times. Then he got bored wandered off. Sunday, I will blind test a member of AoS and see if he can here anything between the two. I will not even tell him what I'm doing. I don't care what anyone tells me, plugs make a difference. I've heard differences in plugs ( materials and structure ) hundreds of times over the years . Also some plugs /materials sound better than others on different cables . You and your son aren't hearing things Oli . I've demonstrated this fact with enthusiasts present many times over the years and it's not up for debate , just like you mate . People can say what they like , I know what I hear . |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 9:25:36 GMT
So, I've just butchered a perfectly good cable to make two cables. One has MPS gold plated RCAs on one end and gold plated Tellurium Copper XLR's on the other end. The second cable has KLE Copper Harmony plugs on one end and the exact same gold plated Tellurium copper XLRs as the first cables at the other end. I've just listened to "Silent Passage" by Marlon Williams 6 times. 3 with each set and with the KLE plugs on the Spotfire cables, it sounds like a different fucking mix altogether. The cables with the MPS plugs have a sharp leading edge and the KLE finished cables have a much fuller sound. Its not my imagination. I've just blind tested my 7 year old and even he can tell if it's the same or different. I asked him if it was the same or different on 5 occasions and he was spot on 5/5 times. Then he got bored wandered off. Sunday, I will blind test a member of AoS and see if he can here anything between the two. I will not even tell him what I'm doing. I don't care what anyone tells me, plugs make a difference. I've heard differences in plugs ( materials and structure ) hundreds of times over the years . Also some plugs /materials sound better than others on different cables . You and your son aren't hearing things Oli . I've demonstrated this fact with enthusiasts present many times over the years and it's not up for debate , just like you mate . People can say what they like , I know what I hear . Hi Brian,
Thanks for that. It's appreciated.
Like you, and mainly because of your input on the subject, I have auditioned hundreds of cable and plug combinations and like you, I heard differences. Some more pronounced than others admittedly, but as you know, there is a difference. Like you say, some plugs are better with certain cables and I don't know why.
What concerns me is that the so called "specialists" of HiFi equipment are REFUSING to hear the differences, because a text book says it isn't possible. It appears to me that even if they heard a difference, they would rather dismiss it than accept it. Blaming tricks of the mind rather than it being an actual thing. How boring and unimaginative that must be.
This for me is where the whole thing fails.
I trust my ears 100%, because that's essentially what I use when I listen to music. When the human evolved, its senses evolved to protect itself from predators. Hearing, Sight and Smell were all essential tools for survival. The sense of smell has diminished over time, but if you take my mom anywhere, she can smell like a bloodhound. she can sniff garlic out at a distance of 10 miles lol. yet I can't smell anything unless its stuffed up my snotter. This is where the truth is. She smells stuff I can't. My 4 years old told me the ice cream van was coming the other day, I said "yup, I can hear it" yet my wife looked at us and said she couldn't hear anything.
We are all different and have different strengths where senses are concerned.
I'd rather trust those senses that have been developed and evolved over thousands of years, that the opinion of others.
I don't listen to a text book or an oscilloscope. Whether anyone else thinks its impossible, it just doesn't matter to me, but I wont be told I cannot hear it, when I can.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 9:27:51 GMT
I bought some pricy cable from a perfectionist friend, 3 lengths that were terminated with RCA's on one end and BNC on the other.
I bought some cheap BNC to RCA adaptors and used two between my amps and pre. The other I cut in half, bought two reasonably priced RCA's leaving the original silly price RCA and the BNC on. I use this between my headphone amp and pre.
He had a fit
Now here is my point, sure I might notice a difference, that difference in my experience with interconnects has been marginal and only different not better.
A while back I played around I put in some stupid price NOS input valves into one of the mono blocks and some affordable EH's into the other played around a bit and I was buggered if I could tell whether the right channel was any better than the left. Ha Ha.
Like the time I had to resolder a plug that had broken contact on a Van den Hul cable. Sh#t cable to put a plug on, I tried but failed, took it to an expert the one cable is now a fraction shorter than the other. He was all for making them the same length at a price ofc. I said no, I will not notice the difference. He made the statement well it all depends on what type of audiophile you are.
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Post by brian2957 on Nov 2, 2019 9:43:51 GMT
Point taken Mr Lemos . However , as with Oliver , I'm not disputing what you hear . If you can't hear any difference then that's fine by me . However , I have heard differences in cables and plugs many times over and don't expect people to dispute what I'm hearing . I have also been the target of Objectivists over the years and as I've got older ( don't know about wiser  ) I've learned to keep my own council on these matters for the most part . |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 9:45:59 GMT
I bought some pricy cable from a perfectionist friend, 3 lengths that were terminated with RCA's on one end and BNC on the other. I bought some cheap BNC to RCA adaptors and used two between my amps and pre. The other I cut in half, bought two reasonably priced RCA's leaving the original silly price RCA and the BNC on. I use this between my headphone amp and pre. He had a fit Now here is my point, sure I might notice a difference, that difference in my experience with interconnects has been marginal and only different not better. A while back I played around I put in some stupid price NOS input valves into one of the mono blocks and some affordable EH's into the other played around a bit and I was buggered if I could tell whether the right channel was any better than the left. Ha Ha. Like the time I had to resolder a plug that had broken contact on a Van den Hul cable. Sh#t cable to put a plug on, I tried but failed, took it to an expert the one cable is now a fraction shorter than the other. He was all for making them the same length at a price ofc. I said no, I will not notice the difference. He made the statement well it all depends on what type of audiophile you are. I accept that Lem, that some people haven't had the same experience from changing Valves, cables and Opamps and I respect that in your opinion, nothing has made all that much difference, but the difference is that you aren't saying that it impossible that someone else can.
I took a set of my cables to a guy who was 100% a cable sceptic. It was his system, his listening space, his music and his decision on what he heard,. I did not say ANYTHING to him about it. No pointers, no cues, not a single thing.
He told me "I've got bags of cables. Literally carrier bags full of the things"
By the time I left, he'd decided that he heard enough of a difference to buy a couple of sets. He then bought speaker cables from me after trying them out against his incumbents.
They were not cheap Sh#t either. They were in excess of £300 per pair.
I did the same to an Electronics expert of over 40 years experience.
He too said that he didn't believe in cables or plugs making a difference. He now has my cables and speaker cables in his system and again, I never pushed them on him or said a single thing as to what would happen. It was a friendly meet and I only took them on the off chance that we'd get time to try them on his system. More for my benefit really.
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Post by macca on Nov 2, 2019 9:52:54 GMT
Ollie - any chance of a loaner - with a view to buy - on these cables that emphasise leading edges?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 10:13:20 GMT
Point taken Mr Lemos . However , as with Oliver , I'm not disputing what you hear . If you can't hear any difference then that's fine by me . However , I have heard differences in cables and plugs many times over and don't expect people to dispute what I'm hearing . I have also been the target of Objectivists over the years and as I've got older ( don't know about wiser ) I've learned to keep my own council on these matters for the most part . I am a tight ass so I am speaking from the perspective of a tight ass. If I had the money then my attitude would most certainly change. Being a tight ass throws a blanket of denial over this debate and many others. Not having the money it is very comforting to refuse to accept there are differences of that I am well aware. I just cannot spend as much or more on a single digital cable that covers the cost a very good amplifier. Ain't bais a bitch. So the differences are put into a box, because not having the money to spend on the cable makes them unobtainable. My ear is as good as any, whether the improvements/differences it is a priority, is purely dictated by financial circumstances. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 10:29:21 GMT
Ollie - any chance of a loaner - with a view to buy - on these cables that emphasise leading edges? You could have loaned them but they have XLR's on one end!
If you want, send me your cables and i'll put them on your cables for you. Can always return them for the original plugs if you want. If not, keep them as is.
They aren't pretty, I had to cut the arse end off the fit the Cable in. Can hide it with Heat shrink mind you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 10:36:43 GMT
Point taken Mr Lemos . However , as with Oliver , I'm not disputing what you hear . If you can't hear any difference then that's fine by me . However , I have heard differences in cables and plugs many times over and don't expect people to dispute what I'm hearing. I have also been the target of Objectivists over the years and as I've got older ( don't know about wiser ) I've learned to keep my own council on these matters for the most part . This is exactly what I took exception to.
The hifi forums we visit, unless specifically aimed at the techy types like Audio Science Review, are there for you to be able to share your thought's, converse on topics of interest and to learn from the experiences and advice of others, where sought. They do not exist for people to hit you over the head with Text books with a view to "being right"
The fact you have had to keep your own council on such things usually means that the forums you frequent have failed to protect that very aspect of why they were made. We won't let that happen here, and it's no dig at any forum either.
Rule 2 of the forum is that you have no right to tell anyone else what they hear.
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Post by brian2957 on Nov 2, 2019 10:42:22 GMT
Point taken Mr Lemos . However , as with Oliver , I'm not disputing what you hear . If you can't hear any difference then that's fine by me . However , I have heard differences in cables and plugs many times over and don't expect people to dispute what I'm hearing . I have also been the target of Objectivists over the years and as I've got older ( don't know about wiser ) I've learned to keep my own council on these matters for the most part . I am a tight ass so I am speaking from the perspective of a tight ass. If I had the money then my attitude would most certainly change. Being a tight ass throws a blanket of denial over this debate and many others. Not having the money it is very comforting to refuse to accept there are differences of that I am well aware. I just cannot spend as much or more on a single digital cable that covers the cost a very good amplifier. Ain't bais a bitch. So the differences are put into a box, because not having the money to spend on the cable makes them unobtainable. My ear is as good as any, whether the improvements/differences it is a priority, is purely dictated by financial circumstances. Hah! Me too , that's why I started making my own interconnects using reasonably priced plugs and cables . Over the years , though , I've tried literally hundreds of cable and plug combinations . |
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Post by macca on Nov 2, 2019 10:45:46 GMT
Ollie - any chance of a loaner - with a view to buy - on these cables that emphasise leading edges? You could have loaned them but they have XLR's on one end!
If you want, send me your cables and i'll put them on your cables for you. Can always return them for the original plugs if you want. If not, keep them as is.
They aren't pretty, I had to cut the arse end off the fit the Cable in. Can hide it with Heat shrink mind you.
I don't want to send my spotfire cables, can I send some other cables and you can replace the plugs on them? I'm assuming it's all in the plugs. I'll sort you out with a drink obvs. |
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Post by brian2957 on Nov 2, 2019 10:48:22 GMT
Point taken Mr Lemos . However , as with Oliver , I'm not disputing what you hear . If you can't hear any difference then that's fine by me . However , I have heard differences in cables and plugs many times over and don't expect people to dispute what I'm hearing. I have also been the target of Objectivists over the years and as I've got older ( don't know about wiser ) I've learned to keep my own council on these matters for the most part . This is exactly what I took exception to.
The hifi forums we visit, unless specifically aimed at the techy types like Audio Science Review, are there for you to be able to share your thought's, converse on topics of interest and to learn from the experiences and advice of others, where sought. They do not exist for people to hit you over the head with Text books with a view to "being right"
The fact you have had to keep your own council on such things usually means that the forums you frequent have failed to protect that very aspect of why they were made. We won't let that happen here, and it's no dig at any forum either.
Rule 2 of the forum is that you have no right to tell anyone else what they hear.
Yup , point taken Oliver . However , this is a fairly new forum and as you know , not all forums are equal . I just can't be bothered to justify my opinion any more , but that's in all walks of life . I just don't have to be right |
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) I've learned to keep my own council on these matters for the most part . 
