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Post by macca on Jun 24, 2018 8:30:15 GMT
Had a another listen to a Sondek at the North West show yesterday. All Linn system, little 3 way speakers with 2 subs. Dire Strait's first album was playing. I know that pretty well, I've got the original vinyl (bought in about 1984) and the re-mastered CD and still listen to it regularly. Sound quality was average at best with some audible distortion on the high guitar notes. Not very impressive given just one of the subwoofers costs more than my entire system.
The subs were well integrated, though.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 24, 2018 8:58:14 GMT
Vimyl lovers *at this level* either don't notice the colouration and distortion, or ignore it as they're so used to it.
Vinyl doesn' *have* to sound this way, but I think you have to spend loads to get the quality anywhere near a half decent CD player or streaming opion via a reasonable *modern* DAC.
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Post by macca on Jun 24, 2018 9:55:31 GMT
One of the dealer rooms had Luxman amps with PMC speakers, suspect you would have liked that set up Dave.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 24, 2018 11:41:23 GMT
Not sure about the 'domestic' PMC speakers as their tonal balance as measured is abysmal - 10db presence suckout far worse than any BBC-derived type BUT having said that, I heard some larger 20-25 models at the Audio east show driven by Naim as well as their own £5k integrated amp and they were very good in a large room..
Luxman - well, they're forever out of my league, but the current ones do sound, look and 'feel' the business and I'm envious of anyone able to own and enjoy one. Definitely a status thing, but I think they have the chops to go with it...
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Post by macca on Jun 24, 2018 13:50:31 GMT
I think it was the IB2 SE we listened to which I believe is a domesticated pro monitor: pmc-speakers.com/products/consumer/se-series/ib2-seI'm also not keen on their 'domestic' speakers. I've yet to hear anything Luxman I didn't like and the latest kit appeals to my taste in the looks as well. The CD player is especially tempting in that respect: Like you I couldn't afford it if I lived to be a million.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 24, 2018 15:08:32 GMT
The one HiFi Dave has doesn't have the valve(s) to screw around with the output from memory and is the 'cheap' one at a mere £4k... Sounded lovely in a valve Isis/Top Naim kind of way (huge soundstage and bass extension).
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Post by macca on Jun 24, 2018 20:01:26 GMT
Yeah I hate that valve gimmickry. Anyway I like the way it looks, especially that they use an orange LED display. Someone with some taste designed it.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 24, 2018 21:43:43 GMT
I'm having my usual Sunday night headphone session when I can play what I effin' well like, nice and loud and not worry about anyone else for a while... NO vinyl player will provide the bass dynamics, proper bass tunefulness and high frequency clarity all in the same proportion. One or other, but not it all in my book - and no surface noise either - bliss!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 24, 2018 22:14:57 GMT
I'm having my usual Sunday night headphone session when I can play what I effin' well like, nice and loud and not worry about anyone else for a while... NO vinyl player will provide the bass dynamics, proper bass tunefulness and high frequency clarity all in the same proportion. One or other, but not it all in my book - and no surface noise either - bliss! I think my headphone days are done. It’s just not an enjoyable or realistic way to listen to music for me. Glad it works for you though.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 25, 2018 8:11:34 GMT
I have no choice a lot of the time. Headphones put the music right in your head and the right ones for you can be amazing. I suspect your speaker choices put the music further away and spread around the room acoustics, so an opposite way of listening.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2018 8:37:38 GMT
Yes, that’s exactly it. I’ve been trying to find headphones that don’t do the “in your head” thing because I don’t like it, or feel it’s in any way real. I failed, irrespective of how much I was willing to spend.
There are a load of completely misleading claims for headphones that “soundstage” and make it sound like the music is playing in real space outside your head. I had to listen for myself to find out it was bollocks. I also found that the differences between £100 and £2000 headphones are insignificant for me. If anyone is seeking the same things I was, save yourself time and money and forget it.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 25, 2018 11:36:46 GMT
Headphones reproduce it how it's mixed, as there's no listening room to add its own character and colouration to it or smear proper stereo positioning with random room reflections. I like the liveliness of my HD25SP (the pauper version) but my like of cheaper Grado's is growing in recent years (the dearer ones just have selected (apparently) modules and posher outers and ear-pads.
Apologies, I'll never accept omni-speakers however good they are. The only pair I liked were some Cube 1's in a well damped room and these just sounded like a good pair of conventional speakers to me..
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2018 12:12:11 GMT
I guess this debate contains the nub of many Hi-Fi discussions: What you like depends on what sort of sound you are seeking. I seem to love air amp space (well I am claustrophobic, after all). Tonal balance and colouration are far less important.
I am unsurprised by what you say about Grados. I changed the ear pads on my SR80s to the same ones the RS2 use and they came far closer to them than I’d expected. I reckon with better cable and some added wood cups, they would be near identical. In fact I reckon I could probably get a pair of modded SR80s to better the RS2 with a bit of work and experimentation. As I have SR80 and SR60 I will probably try one day, but for now, my motivation to tinker with headphones just isn’t there.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 25, 2018 13:06:47 GMT
Way off topic, but your claustrophobia explains lots here (I'm not taking the pee but trying to understand where you come from).
I remember the Grado 90's being worth the extra over the 80's, not realising the earpads were 99% of it apparently. The £320 or so ones were about as far as I'd go and the reference ones over were worse to me...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2018 14:52:34 GMT
Yep, you’re right, I hadn’t thought much about it affecting my tastes in sound, but spaciousness and especially image height are things I crave. Headphones are never likely to be satisfactory in that respects. It also explains my liking for a bigger room over better kit, if I had to choose.
Lots of people have issues with confined space. I wonder if it’s common for it fo affect their preferences too. I reckon it just might.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 13:47:31 GMT
would love to hear one here at home...but i'm done with hifi meself...25k plus for a record player is chronic ocd imho
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 13:59:38 GMT
Especially when it can be beaten (in truthfulness to the source master) for under two grand plus cartridge!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 14:09:28 GMT
The price of much Hi-Fi is ridiculous. Compared to a Linn, there's probably as much precision engineering in a modern car alternator and probably as much research done to design it too. They're even decently finished these days!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 14:42:38 GMT
It was £471 in 1987 and it looks essentially the same today, it was also claimed by the maker to be as good air it gets and as good as it needs to be way back then. it’s now 50 times the price. That would make me shy away even if I had several millions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 14:47:39 GMT
yep
i bought me first one in febuary 1989 for 520 quid...for that money it was a bargain...25k is a total piss take... me last spec one was lingo ekos arkiv that i bought used in 1993 for just a 1000 quid lol...me mates technics 1200 wiped the floor with it and i then sold it for 1300 quid.. high interest rates back then.no body had any money..nowadays they even loan money for hifi lol as rates are so low..then went over to a roksan xerxes...pos had had bad arm board sag within a year...too bright me for that deck..then gyro..after that i kinda knocked hifi on the head and got meself a life
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 15:03:19 GMT
The Ekos was double the Ittok i remember and sold on its own for £1200 or so to start with. The Arkiv was a slugged Lyra I believe and had a dark tone to iti remember. The Cirkus plus plinth updates post 1992 did improve the bass no end, but by then the price was starting to get seriously silly! I still believe the fruitbox is regarded as a serious cash cow and they're still selling.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 15:08:33 GMT
before me ekos specced one i had a valhalla ittok audio-technica oc7...was ear splitting junk..cant remember much about the arkiv tbh..only owned it for a few weeks..i do know i wernt impressed with it at all..after reading all the hype and bollox the mags were saying about it..wtf was that all about..back handers for sure
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 12:09:28 GMT
one cartridge i never got round to owning or even hearing was a troika.. always though it looked good in the ekos ittok arm..
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Post by dsjr on Jul 6, 2018 15:53:32 GMT
The Karma and Troika used to sound great (relatively speaking) straight out of the box and went off in the first few hours from there as they 'ran in' I remember. I can say from needle drops I downloaded, that a rebuilt Troika (both ESCo and Goldring and I think with similar high grade proper ellipticals as originally fitted), sounds better than new (less 'turgid' in the bass).
Best I ever heard an original Troika at the time was in an SME 309 (special headshell with three holes) on an LP12 (you could get an SME V era arm to work really well on an LP12, but some extra work around the mountings was needed - not impossible though...
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