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Post by savvypaul on Mar 1, 2019 19:22:06 GMT
Yes, that's right F#ck the science that gave you ethernet in the first place. F#ck that transfer protocol that sends data in chunks with checksums and resends any bad chunks to guarantee 100% data integrity all the time, F#ck that transfer protocol that only has data wires and no separate power line to mess the data up, F#ck that science that buffers every single bit of that data locally to the dac chip on a phy layer totally abstracted from the rest of the transfer protocol. Yes, F#ck them because they bothered to read about the data protocol and learn what can and cant possibly affect the transmitted bits of data. F#ck them because they landed at the logical conclusion of user expectation bias. That's Sh#t hot swearing... |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,063
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 1, 2019 19:37:46 GMT
At the end of that day, as long as Paul hears a difference then there’s a difference as far as he is concerned. There are lots of techs who will,tell me that spear cables can’t make much if any difference unless they measure sufficiently differently and/or the amp is particularly vulnerable in this respect. It doesn’t match what I hear so what am I to do? Go with a better sounding cable or tell myself I’m wrong and enjoy the music less?
I realise it’s not an exact parallel but the principles are the same for me. However, I do acknowledge that lots of cable/support etc differences are tiny/almost imperceptible/unlikely to be pickable blind. A big part of me feels that lots of time and money is spent by audiophiles and a few people have gotten rich off the back of such things. Personally I would only bother with affordable cables and accessories that make a significant improvement. But then my definitions of affordable and significant will be different from others. No wonder folk disagree,
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Post by macca on Mar 1, 2019 20:51:12 GMT
At the end of that day, as long as Paul hears a difference then there’s a difference as far as he is concerned. epistemology [ɪˌpɪstɪˈmɒlədʒi, ɛˌpɪstɪˈmɒlədʒi] NOUN philosophy the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope, and the distinction between justified belief and opinionIt might seem that simple but actually it's a whole branch of Philosophy. Fundamentally, although we are all trapped in a subjective reality that we cannot escape from does that mean that we are right to conclude that our subjective reality is the whole of reality? There is no easy answer to this question. epistemology [ɪˌpɪstɪˈmɒlədʒi, ɛˌpɪstɪˈmɒlədʒi] NOUN philosophy the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope, and the distinction between justified belief and opinion |
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Post by sq225917 on Mar 2, 2019 8:41:48 GMT
Speakers cables, might make an audible difference, with some kit, most definitely. A fully specced ethernet cable will never make a difference unless broken.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 2, 2019 11:42:06 GMT
Chord Co reportedly had am ASA ruling made against them back in 2014 regarding the claims in early advertising of such cables it appears. What I'd like Paul to do if he has the time and energy and let alone the inclination, is to find and borrow a standard 20 foot or longer ethernet cable from his work and see if it's the same as the Chord one, let alone his new expensive one.
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Post by pauld on Mar 2, 2019 12:09:23 GMT
Speakers cables, might make an audible difference, with some kit, most definitely. A fully specced ethernet cable will never make a difference unless broken. In your opinion, not in mine. |
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Post by pauld on Mar 2, 2019 12:10:49 GMT
Chord Co reportedly had am ASA ruling made against them back in 2014 regarding the claims in early advertising of such cables it appears. What I'd like Paul to do if he has the time and energy and let alone the inclination, is to find and borrow a standard 20 foot or longer ethernet cable from his work and see if it's the same as the Chord one, let alone his new expensive one. I already did this as mentioned earlier, Dave. The Chord I felt made a minor difference over the stock cable, but the MeiCord made quite a noticeable difference over the Chord. |
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Post by macca on Mar 2, 2019 12:25:53 GMT
Get a friend round to help and see if you can still consistently spot the difference when you don't know which cable is in play. The results may surprise you. Or surprise me.
There's no question that having the knowledge of which one we are listening to can change what we hear. It seems counter-intuitive (and quite scary), but it's true.
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Post by pauld on Mar 2, 2019 17:29:16 GMT
Not sure of the value to be honest, Martin. I’m happy that I have heard a difference. If others believe not, then that’s their prerogative.
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Post by macca on Mar 2, 2019 17:52:53 GMT
Not sure of the value to be honest, Martin. I’m happy that I have heard a difference. If others believe not, then that’s their prerogative. No-one's saying they don't believe you. What's under discussion is why we sometimes hear differences when there is no known reason for it. I'm sure we've all experienced that many times. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 17:54:48 GMT
I saw a ghost once........?
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Post by macca on Mar 2, 2019 17:56:00 GMT
So did I. And I had witnesses with me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 17:56:48 GMT
I saw a ghost once........? Calling Yvette Fielding! S. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 18:11:10 GMT
Yes, that's right F#ck the science that gave you ethernet in the first place. F#ck that transfer protocol that sends data in chunks with checksums and resends any bad chunks to guarantee 100% data integrity all the time, F#ck that transfer protocol that only has data wires and no separate power line to mess the data up, F#ck that science that buffers every single bit of that data locally to the dac chip on a phy layer totally abstracted from the rest of the transfer protocol. Yes, F#ck them because they bothered to read about the data protocol and learn what can and cant possibly affect the transmitted bits of data. F#ck them because they landed at the logical conclusion of user expectation bias. Lmao, I gotta say, I did laugh when I read this. Is there any technical difference that could contribute to the perceived sound change? Rather than expectation bias being to blame, obviously. Also, if there's no difference in these cables, what all the CAT 5/6/7 about? I'm asking as I know absolutely nothing about this subject. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 18:27:27 GMT
Yes, that's right F#ck the science that gave you ethernet in the first place. F#ck that transfer protocol that sends data in chunks with checksums and resends any bad chunks to guarantee 100% data integrity all the time, F#ck that transfer protocol that only has data wires and no separate power line to mess the data up, F#ck that science that buffers every single bit of that data locally to the dac chip on a phy layer totally abstracted from the rest of the transfer protocol. Yes, F#ck them because they bothered to read about the data protocol and learn what can and cant possibly affect the transmitted bits of data. F#ck them because they landed at the logical conclusion of user expectation bias. Lmao, I gotta say, I did laugh when I read this. Is there any technical difference that could contribute to the perceived sound change? Rather than expectation bias being to blame, obviously. Also, if there's no difference in these cables, what all the CAT 5/6/7 about? I'm asking as I know absolutely nothing about this subject. Differences are about data capacity. I can't see that transmitting music would be sensitive to this but there is a possibility that Cat7 might transfer data more efficiently than Cat5. Surely you would then get drop outs with the lower rated cable. Cat-5: This is not recognised by the TIA/EIA. It is the cable that is widely used for 100Base-T and 1000Base-T networks as it provides performance to allow data at 100 Mbps and slightly more (125 MHz for 1000Base-T) Ethernet. Cat 5 cable is now obsolete and therefore it is not recommended for new installations. Cat-5e: This form of cable is recognised by the TIA/EIA and is defined in TIA/EIA-568-B.. It has a slightly higher frequency specification that Cat-5 cable as the performance extends up to 125 Mbps. It can be used for 100Base-T and 1000Base-t (Gigabit Ethernet). Cat 5e or enhanced is a form of Cat 5 cable manufactured t0 higher specifications although physically the same as Cat 5. It is tested to a higher specification. Cat-6: This cable is defined in TIA/EIA-568-B provides a significant improvement in performance over Cat5 and Cat 5e. During manufacture Cat 6 cables are more tightly wound than either Cat 5 or Cat 5e and they often have an outer foil or braided shielding. The shielding protects the twisted pairs of wires inside the Ethernet cable, helping to prevent crosstalk and noise interference. Cat-6 cables can technically support speeds up to 10 Gbps, but can only do so for up to 55 metres. Cat-6a: The “a” in Cat 6a stands for “Augmented.” The Cat 6a cables are able to support twice the maximum bandwidth, and are capable of maintaining higher transmission speeds over longer cable lengths. Cat 6a cables utilise shielded which is sufficient to all but eliminate crosstalk. However this makes them less flexible than Cat 6 cable. Cat-7: This is an informal number for ISO/IEC 11801 Class F cabling. It comprises four individually shielded pairs inside an overall shield. It is aimed at applications where transmission of frequencies up to 600 Mbps is required. My guess is audiophile cables use Cat- 6a or Cat 7 cabling. I can't see what other differences there could be other than a nice coloured shield to bling them up a bit. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 18:31:03 GMT
Lmao, I gotta say, I did laugh when I read this. Is there any technical difference that could contribute to the perceived sound change? Rather than expectation bias being to blame, obviously. Also, if there's no difference in these cables, what all the CAT 5/6/7 about? I'm asking as I know absolutely nothing about this subject. Differences are about data capacity. I can't see that transmitting music would be sensitive to this but there is a possibility that Cat7 might transfer data more efficiently than Cat7. Surely you would then get drop outs with the lower rated cable. Cat-5: This is not recognised by the TIA/EIA. It is the cable that is widely used for 100Base-T and 1000Base-T networks as it provides performance to allow data at 100 Mbps and slightly more (125 MHz for 1000Base-T) Ethernet. Cat 5 cable is now obsolete and therefore it is not recommended for new installations. Cat-5e: This form of cable is recognised by the TIA/EIA and is defined in TIA/EIA-568-B.. It has a slightly higher frequency specification that Cat-5 cable as the performance extends up to 125 Mbps. It can be used for 100Base-T and 1000Base-t (Gigabit Ethernet). Cat 5e or enhanced is a form of Cat 5 cable manufactured t0 higher specifications although physically the same as Cat 5. It is tested to a higher specification. Cat-6: This cable is defined in TIA/EIA-568-B provides a significant improvement in performance over Cat5 and Cat 5e. During manufacture Cat 6 cables are more tightly wound than either Cat 5 or Cat 5e and they often have an outer foil or braided shielding. The shielding protects the twisted pairs of wires inside the Ethernet cable, helping to prevent crosstalk and noise interference. Cat-6 cables can technically support speeds up to 10 Gbps, but can only do so for up to 55 metres. Cat-6a: The “a” in Cat 6a stands for “Augmented.” The Cat 6a cables are able to support twice the maximum bandwidth, and are capable of maintaining higher transmission speeds over longer cable lengths. Cat 6a cables utilise shielded which is sufficient to all but eliminate crosstalk. However this makes them less flexible than Cat 6 cable. Cat-7: This is an informal number for ISO/IEC 11801 Class F cabling. It comprises four individually shielded pairs inside an overall shield. It is aimed at applications where transmission of frequencies up to 600 Mbps is required. Thanks for that CR. I will stump up for a better ethernet cable and see if there is ANY change. Like I said, I have absolutely no understanding of this area but I'm happy to take part in a little experiment. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 19:36:44 GMT
Well no experiment for moi.........its all bollocks.
Imho ...... of course.
FFS....ETHERNET.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 2, 2019 19:39:08 GMT
It’s an easy one for me because I don’t and won’t let anything resembling a computer anywhere near my hifi. Computers and enjoyment of music aren’t compatible in my universe
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 19:45:08 GMT
Nope....no pooters, no flac, no pie, no files, no outboard dacs.....etc etc et bloody cetera.
It aint big it aint clever and it aint hifi.
LUDITE DINOSAURS OF THE WORLD UNITE.😇🙏😇
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 19:46:44 GMT
It could be all bollocks but for the price of a cat6 cable, why not!
You're missing out Westie. A mate of mine has had pretty much every price stage of Chord DACs up to the Dave, in his system and hadn't bought one.
He's just bought a Raspberry Pi and he's raving about it.
I dislike the digital media format but even I am thinking there "could" be something more to gain with this pi. Mine isn't even a new up to date Dac board.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 2, 2019 22:26:59 GMT
Apparently, one can stream a hi-res film with multi channel sound AS WELL AS simultaneously top quality two channel audio and still have capacity to spare with Cat 6 I believe... Domestic two channel audio is a tiny amount of data compared to the apparent ratings on these cables... Worth reading the links I referred to as I believe it was stated there...
I'll have to look at a Pi when sonny-jim needs one for his software development work next year, but in the meantime, I'm continually surprised how very fair the dac-for-a-fiver can sound if it's hidden away and therefore forgotten. Th ebasic performance of these is apparently above the minimum red-book standard, so noise and distortions are below audibility and the music that's left is fine to me, if lower in maximum level than the full 2V CD domestic standard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2019 22:32:25 GMT
Apparently, one can stream a hi-res film with multi channel sound AS WELL AS simultaneously top quality two channel audio and still have capacity to spare with Cat 6 I believe... Domestic two channel audio is a tiny amount of data compared to the apparent ratings on these cables... Worth reading the links I referred to as I believe it was stated there... I'll have to look at a Pi when sonny-jim needs one for his software development work next year, but in the meantime, I'm continually surprised how very fair the dac-for-a-fiver can sound if it's hidden away and therefore forgotten. Th ebasic performance of these is apparently above the minimum red-book standard, so noise and distortions are below audibility and the music that's left is fine to me, if lower in maximum level than the full 2V CD domestic standard. Should suffice then if can do all that. I only need to stream FLAC file lol |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 2, 2019 22:45:44 GMT
I'm inclined to suspect the Chord Co. cable myself if it 'sounded' different... Like I said earlier, the school I worked at was built as one long staggered corridor on two floors. The staff room was hundreds of feet away from the server at the front office of the building and there were 'dozens' of ethernet cables run together in a ceiling conduit from one end of the complex to the other. The sound of streaming radio stations (and iPlayer) in the staff room was as clear as a bell and with absolutely no dropouts whatsoever.
Regarding music data 'speeds,' well worth reading up as I seem to recall without checking that even hi res audio is a fraction of the now ancient 100Mbs - I think...
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Post by sq225917 on Mar 3, 2019 0:12:55 GMT
Yup even a shonky old cat5 cable will do CD data speeds with ease. CD is 1.4kbps, cat5 will do 100mbps that's 70,000x faster.
So just think of that when considering the potential impact of data integrity, ethernet can resend the data 70,000 times to get it right before that buffer underuns.
It's just not an issue. Really.
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