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Post by bencat on Jan 15, 2023 0:54:46 GMT
Also to get any RCA cable to match the red book specifications it should be 1.5 mtr in length . So I am told this is the minimum length to prevent wave issues and no I do not understand it or pay it too much attention . I prefer either BNC or AES cables as they are both made and specified correctly for what they do . RCA was never made to be or intended to be a 75 Ohm plug or socket so the cable my be 75 Ohm but it is almost certain the plugs and sockets will not be . I keep getting told that given the length of the cable that it does not matter but if that is the case why did Phillips and Sony make it a specification in the CD red Book standard ?
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Post by antonio on Jan 15, 2023 3:38:46 GMT
everything rated by price, that's a bit nuts in itself. It's possible to spend thousands on an amp or speakers or DACs or turntables that are in fact complete tat. The higher the price the more likely it is to be rubbish, especially speakers once you get past a certain price point.It's not a crazy hobby it just attracts a lot of crazy people. Who then egg each other on to see who can be the craziest. I'm at a complete loss to understand this comment, and what price point are you talking about?
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 15, 2023 5:02:36 GMT
If you can't afford a speaker, of course it's rubbish!
Personally, I'd love to have top of the range MBL speakers. But I lack the spare couple of £million required to buy them, the amplification they need, and the space for them to strut their stuff in.
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 15, 2023 8:24:38 GMT
everything rated by price, that's a bit nuts in itself. It's possible to spend thousands on an amp or speakers or DACs or turntables that are in fact complete tat. The higher the price the more likely it is to be rubbish, especially speakers once you get past a certain price point.It's not a crazy hobby it just attracts a lot of crazy people. Who then egg each other on to see who can be the craziest. I'm at a complete loss to understand this comment, and what price point are you talking about? Actually, pretty much the whole post is complete b#llocks.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 15, 2023 8:43:53 GMT
Also to get any RCA cable to match the red book specifications it should be 1.5 mtr in length . So I am told this is the minimum length to prevent wave issues and no I do not understand it or pay it too much attention . I prefer either BNC or AES cables as they are both made and specified correctly for what they do . RCA was never made to be or intended to be a 75 Ohm plug or socket so the cable my be 75 Ohm but it is almost certain the plugs and sockets will not be . I keep getting told that given the length of the cable that it does not matter but if that is the case why did Phillips and Sony make it a specification in the CD red Book standard ? There are some answers, and they are mostly long-winded but as I understand it there is some truth in the 1.5m theory (especially when referring to Optical (toslink) cables). BUT with so many other factors involved it's unlikely to be the crucial one or indeed make an audible difference. But it might not hurt to cover that base of it's an option. Also I believe Canare are the only RCA plugs to have documented successfully maintaining 75ohm rating (spacing between pin and outer plug) but again not sure how much difference it actually makes or if it is in fact true. That's as I understand it anyway
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Post by macca on Jan 15, 2023 9:07:38 GMT
everything rated by price, that's a bit nuts in itself. It's possible to spend thousands on an amp or speakers or DACs or turntables that are in fact complete tat. The higher the price the more likely it is to be rubbish, especially speakers once you get past a certain price point.It's not a crazy hobby it just attracts a lot of crazy people. Who then egg each other on to see who can be the craziest. I'm at a complete loss to understand this comment, and what price point are you talking about? Once you get your budget over ten grand or so then you can buy some really piss poor speakers. That's not to say all speakers over that price are piss-poor. Just a lot of them.
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Post by macca on Jan 15, 2023 9:11:34 GMT
If you can't afford a speaker, of course it's rubbish! Personally, I'd love to have top of the range MBL speakers. But I lack the spare couple of £million required to buy them, the amplification they need, and the space for them to strut their stuff in. You'd be surprised what I could afford. I could get some MBL like yours if I fancied them, no problem. No inverse snobbery here. I'm just saying a lot of really expensive speakers are crap. Would you like some examples? Bit off topic I know but its more interesting than cablezzzzzz talk.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jan 15, 2023 9:46:24 GMT
actually I think it's the people who don't care about having a decent sound system who are bonkers. Compared to them even the nuts who've spent hundreds of thousands are sane. Hear! Hear Macca. It's like when you're having a conversation with someone "what music do you like?" "Well I don't really listen to music"Faints on floor. Hard to believe such people exist. Two things I wouldn't do: Lend them money. Let them babysit my kids. Because clearly their brains are wired all wrong.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 15, 2023 12:21:02 GMT
I'm at a complete loss to understand this comment, and what price point are you talking about? Once you get your budget over ten grand or so then you can buy some really piss poor speakers. That's not to say all speakers over that price are piss-poor. Just a lot of them. Quite a sweeping statement. As you know, it can be very hard to judge speakers as they need to be well matched to the system and most importantly work in the room. Very few of us have auditioned most speakers over £10k in the right room and with the appropriate system. Many speakers at shows are not in the ideal environment - this is how most of us judge a speaker, and often within 10 minutes.
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Post by macca on Jan 15, 2023 12:36:17 GMT
Once you get your budget over ten grand or so then you can buy some really piss poor speakers. That's not to say all speakers over that price are piss-poor. Just a lot of them. Quite a sweeping statement. As you know, it can be very hard to judge speakers as they need to be well matched to the system and most importantly work in the room. Very few of us have auditioned most speakers over £10k in the right room and with the appropriate system. Many speakers at shows are not in the ideal environment - this is how most of us judge a speaker, and often within 10 minutes. Looking at independent measurements is a much better way to evaluate than a quick demo in an hotel room with some plinky plonk music that sounds fine on any old tat. My observation is based on that, not on a quick listen. Many high end speakers are hand built by a bloke in a shed. He designs entirely by listening, no measurements. As a result they are shockingly poor and very expensive. Look on forums for threads about 'recording quality' and check out what the people complaining the most are using for speakers. I guarantee they will be piss-poor and expensive. Also if you get a character who states 'The better my system gets the more it shows up the flaws in the recordings.' Again I guarantee that he will be using expensive boutique tat.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 15, 2023 15:05:32 GMT
Quite a sweeping statement. As you know, it can be very hard to judge speakers as they need to be well matched to the system and most importantly work in the room. Very few of us have auditioned most speakers over £10k in the right room and with the appropriate system. Many speakers at shows are not in the ideal environment - this is how most of us judge a speaker, and often within 10 minutes. Looking at independent measurements is a much better way to evaluate than a quick demo in an hotel room with some plinky plonk music that sounds fine on any old tat. My observation is based on that, not on a quick listen. Many high end speakers are hand built by a bloke in a shed. He designs entirely by listening, no measurements. As a result they are shockingly poor and very expensive. Look on forums for threads about 'recording quality' and check out what the people complaining the most are using for speakers. I guarantee they will be piss-poor and expensive. Also if you get a character who states 'The better my system gets the more it shows up the flaws in the recordings.' Again I guarantee that he will be using expensive boutique tat. Measurements only is certainly one way to evaluate speakers, but not one I would solely rely on - too many speakers measure virtually the same and sound completely different. The room/speaker/amp interaction is by far the most important when buying speakers. Each to their own though. Which 'bloke in a shed' designs are you referring to? I am technically a 'bloke in shed' who builds high end ('high end' is obviously relative) speakers. As you know, they are Troels Gravesen designs and do have measurements. I would caution against making statements like "As a result they are shockingly poor and very expensive." unless you have any direct experience and evidence of this. It is a rather sweeping statement and obviously highly subjective. Most 'blokes in a shed' would rather you heard their speakers before passing any generalised judgements publicly.
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Post by bencat on Jan 15, 2023 15:52:46 GMT
Just in answer to my comment on the length of digital cables I was in fact talking about rca digital cables and I have had this explained to me a few times but I am still a little confused by it . However this explains at least the theory and I am sure some on here will fully get and perhaps even have an argument that it is not correct . This is the first time I think I have out a link to another site so if this is not something accepted on here my apologies and feel free to delete as needed. I have only used this because I am not able to explain the theory myself . I would also state right now that while this covers BNC cables for SPDIF as well I have never heard or found longer cables being any better than the standard 1 mtr . However I have found for BNC (not RCA) that shorter cables can sound better this is probably on the grounds that the best wire is no wire and then the next best is the shortest cable .
audiosensibility.com/blog/faqs/why-is-1-5m-the-ideal-length-for-a-rcabnc-digital-cable/
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Post by macca on Jan 15, 2023 16:48:31 GMT
Looking at independent measurements is a much better way to evaluate than a quick demo in an hotel room with some plinky plonk music that sounds fine on any old tat. My observation is based on that, not on a quick listen. Many high end speakers are hand built by a bloke in a shed. He designs entirely by listening, no measurements. As a result they are shockingly poor and very expensive. Look on forums for threads about 'recording quality' and check out what the people complaining the most are using for speakers. I guarantee they will be piss-poor and expensive. Also if you get a character who states 'The better my system gets the more it shows up the flaws in the recordings.' Again I guarantee that he will be using expensive boutique tat. Measurements only is certainly one way to evaluate speakers, but not one I would solely rely on - too many speakers measure virtually the same and sound completely different. The room/speaker/amp interaction is by far the most important when buying speakers. Each to their own though. Which 'bloke in a shed' designs are you referring to? I am technically a 'bloke in shed' who builds high end ('high end' is obviously relative) speakers. As you know, they are Troels Gravesen designs and do have measurements. I would caution against making statements like "As a result they are shockingly poor and very expensive." unless you have any direct experience and evidence of this. It is a rather sweeping statement and obviously highly subjective. Most 'blokes in a shed' would rather you heard their speakers before passing any generalised judgements publicly. there's a big difference between designing and building. Building proven designs in a shed, as you and many others do, is not the same as building your own design solely by ear. ''Too many speakers measure virtually the same and sound completely different'' - the opposite of my experience. Do you have any specific examples of speakers that measure 'virtually the same' in every important parameter? If speakers sound different it is always possible to see why that is given a full suite of measurements. Just listening isn't very reliable. As I mentioned on another thread just the colour of the loudspeaker will effect our perception of the sound, as will any other cosmetic, plus our impression of the brand, the price, any reviews we have previously read, what friends or the salesman have primed us to expect, and so on. Plus you could listen all day and not play some programme that highlights some terrible flaw. The sort of flaw that once you hear it you then hear it in all the other music that didn't previously make it obvious that it's a duffer. If a bloke in shed wants me to listen to his design then I'd want to see his measurements first before I took the trouble. If they measured poorly I wouldn't be interested in hearing them. Examples of designed by ear: www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-measurementswww.stereophile.com/content/voxativ-ampeggio-loudspeaker-measurementsI can give dozens more.
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Post by macca on Jan 15, 2023 17:05:24 GMT
Just in answer to my comment on the length of digital cables I was in fact talking about rca digital cables and I have had this explained to me a few times but I am still a little confused by it . However this explains at least the theory and I am sure some on here will fully get and perhaps even have an argument that it is not correct . This is the first time I think I have out a link to another site so if this is not something accepted on here my apologies and feel free to delete as needed. I have only used this because I am not able to explain the theory myself . I would also state right now that while this covers BNC cables for SPDIF as well I have never heard or found longer cables being any better than the standard 1 mtr . However I have found for BNC (not RCA) that shorter cables can sound better this is probably on the grounds that the best wire is no wire and then the next best is the shortest cable .
audiosensibility.com/blog/faqs/why-is-1-5m-the-ideal-length-for-a-rcabnc-digital-cable/my take is that it's something that is true in theory but not audible in practice. Of course someone selling digital cables is going to need to find problems his cable supposedly solves or where is his USP? I did buy a digital cable that was 1.5 metres though, because why not? It wasn't appreciably more expensive than a shorter one.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 15, 2023 17:18:11 GMT
Measurements only is certainly one way to evaluate speakers, but not one I would solely rely on - too many speakers measure virtually the same and sound completely different. The room/speaker/amp interaction is by far the most important when buying speakers. Each to their own though. Which 'bloke in a shed' designs are you referring to? I am technically a 'bloke in shed' who builds high end ('high end' is obviously relative) speakers. As you know, they are Troels Gravesen designs and do have measurements. I would caution against making statements like "As a result they are shockingly poor and very expensive." unless you have any direct experience and evidence of this. It is a rather sweeping statement and obviously highly subjective. Most 'blokes in a shed' would rather you heard their speakers before passing any generalised judgements publicly. there's a big difference between designing and building. Building proven designs in a shed, as you and many others do, is not the same as building your own design solely by ear. ''Too many speakers measure virtually the same and sound completely different'' - the opposite of my experience. Do you have any specific examples of speakers that measure 'virtually the same' in every important parameter? If speakers sound different it is always possible to see why that is given a full suite of measurements. Just listening isn't very reliable. As I mentioned on another thread just the colour of the loudspeaker will effect our perception of the sound, as will any other cosmetic, plus our impression of the brand, the price, any reviews we have previously read, what friends or the salesman have primed us to expect, and so on. Plus you could listen all day and not play some programme that highlights some terrible flaw. The sort of flaw that once you hear it you then hear it in all the other music that didn't previously make it obvious that it's a duffer. If a bloke in shed wants me to listen to his design then I'd want to see his measurements first before I took the trouble. If they measured poorly I wouldn't be interested in hearing them. Examples of designed by ear: www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-measurementswww.stereophile.com/content/voxativ-ampeggio-loudspeaker-measurementsI can give dozens more. Thanks for your initial clarification Martin. Many speakers measure within +/-3db from 50Hz to 20kHz, and certainly don't sound the same. Come and hear the CNO4s, Ekta mkIIs and Duos when they are all finished - it is more instructive than me trying to explain it in words. Maybe define what you consider "every important parameter"? Like I said above, each to their own - I can completely respect that we all have a different approach. I do think think measurements are extremely important. However, recent experience has showed that the room/speaker interaction is extremely important. I have heard the same speakers in many different rooms and know that +/-10db swings (due to room modes - all of us have them) are very real and detrimental to SQ. Can you show where it says those two examples were designed by ear? (I have not read the full reviews yet)
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Post by macca on Jan 15, 2023 18:23:34 GMT
there's a big difference between designing and building. Building proven designs in a shed, as you and many others do, is not the same as building your own design solely by ear. ''Too many speakers measure virtually the same and sound completely different'' - the opposite of my experience. Do you have any specific examples of speakers that measure 'virtually the same' in every important parameter? If speakers sound different it is always possible to see why that is given a full suite of measurements. Just listening isn't very reliable. As I mentioned on another thread just the colour of the loudspeaker will effect our perception of the sound, as will any other cosmetic, plus our impression of the brand, the price, any reviews we have previously read, what friends or the salesman have primed us to expect, and so on. Plus you could listen all day and not play some programme that highlights some terrible flaw. The sort of flaw that once you hear it you then hear it in all the other music that didn't previously make it obvious that it's a duffer. If a bloke in shed wants me to listen to his design then I'd want to see his measurements first before I took the trouble. If they measured poorly I wouldn't be interested in hearing them. Examples of designed by ear: www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-measurementswww.stereophile.com/content/voxativ-ampeggio-loudspeaker-measurementsI can give dozens more. Thanks for your initial clarification Martin. Many speakers measure within +/-3db from 50Hz to 20kHz, and certainly don't sound the same. Come and hear the CNO4s, Ekta mkIIs and Duos when they are all finished - it is more instructive than me trying to explain it in words. Maybe define what you consider "every important parameter"? Like I said above, each to their own - I can completely respect that we all have a different approach. I do think think measurements are extremely important. However, recent experience has showed that the room/speaker interaction is extremely important. I have heard the same speakers in many different rooms and know that +/-10db swings (due to room modes - all of us have them) are very real and detrimental to SQ. Can you show where it says those two examples were designed by ear? (I have not read the full reviews yet) I would say the important parameters are frequency response on and off axis, low frequency extension, and distortion level (especially in mid and top), in that order. In addition a speaker with wide off axis response vs one with narrow directivity - that one is room and position dependant of course so may matter a lot or very little. If all those aspects are very similar the speakers would be very hard to tell apart because they are effectively the same speaker. What characteristics would you say are missing from that list?
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 15, 2023 18:44:02 GMT
Thanks for your initial clarification Martin. Many speakers measure within +/-3db from 50Hz to 20kHz, and certainly don't sound the same. Come and hear the CNO4s, Ekta mkIIs and Duos when they are all finished - it is more instructive than me trying to explain it in words. Maybe define what you consider "every important parameter"? Like I said above, each to their own - I can completely respect that we all have a different approach. I do think think measurements are extremely important. However, recent experience has showed that the room/speaker interaction is extremely important. I have heard the same speakers in many different rooms and know that +/-10db swings (due to room modes - all of us have them) are very real and detrimental to SQ. Can you show where it says those two examples were designed by ear? (I have not read the full reviews yet) I would say the important parameters are frequency response on and off axis, low frequency extension, and distortion level (especially in mid and top), in that order. In addition a speaker with wide off axis response vs one with narrow directivity - that one is room and position dependant of course so may matter a lot or very little. If all those aspects are very similar the speakers would be very hard to tell apart because they are effectively the same speaker. What characteristics would you say are missing from that list? Read what Troels Gravesen says about measurements, it tries to convey the limitations of measurements: www.troelsgravesen.dk/Revelator-851.htm#MEASUREMENTSLike I said above, I definitely agree that measurements are extremely important. However, you have a lot of experience and technical knowledge, so understand what they are saying. Unfortunately, most people couldn't reliable interpret them. Learning to read complex speakers measurements can take years to master reliably.
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Post by macca on Jan 15, 2023 19:02:05 GMT
Yes read that piece before (I think you linked me to it via PM). He's sort of right and I wouldn't give a final verdict on a speaker without a long listen. The difference is that if I didn't like how it measured I wouldn't bother listening to it to beginf with.
Now if someone doesn't know what they are looking at when it comes to measurements then of course they cannot use it as a method of shortlisting speakers. But it doesn't take much to learn what is a good and what is a bad frequency response.
Or better still, be able to identify the type of frequency response that gives the sound you like. If you're into the 'Singer on the carpet in front of the speakers' sort of thing then look for a speaker with a raised midrange. If you are mr mellow look for a 'BBC dip', and so forth. I'm simplifying a little, okay, but not a lot.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 15, 2023 19:15:40 GMT
Yes read that piece before (I think you linked me to it via PM). He's sort of right and I wouldn't give a final verdict on a speaker without a long listen. The difference is that if I didn't like how it measured I wouldn't bother listening to it to beginf with. Now if someone doesn't know what they are looking at when it comes to measurements then of course they cannot use it as a method of shortlisting speakers. But it doesn't take much to learn what is a good and what is a bad frequency response. Or better still, be able to identify the type of frequency response that gives the sound you like. If you're into the 'Singer on the carpet in front of the speakers' sort of thing then look for a speaker with a raised midrange. If you are mr mellow look for a 'BBC dip', and so forth. I'm simplifying a little, okay, but not a lot. I can understand that your approach would work well, especially with a long listen in your room before committing. I and Troels (most likely) would argue that even if 3 of his speakers measure the same in frequency response (within 3db) from 50-20000Hz they will not sound the same. The different driver manufacturers have a different sonic signature. It's hard to explain until you hear it for yourself. I'll be getting a mic soon, so will post some in room measurements.
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Post by macca on Jan 15, 2023 21:32:25 GMT
Yes read that piece before (I think you linked me to it via PM). He's sort of right and I wouldn't give a final verdict on a speaker without a long listen. The difference is that if I didn't like how it measured I wouldn't bother listening to it to beginf with. Now if someone doesn't know what they are looking at when it comes to measurements then of course they cannot use it as a method of shortlisting speakers. But it doesn't take much to learn what is a good and what is a bad frequency response. Or better still, be able to identify the type of frequency response that gives the sound you like. If you're into the 'Singer on the carpet in front of the speakers' sort of thing then look for a speaker with a raised midrange. If you are mr mellow look for a 'BBC dip', and so forth. I'm simplifying a little, okay, but not a lot. I can understand that your approach would work well, especially with a long listen in your room before committing. I and Troels (most likely) would argue that even if 3 of his speakers measure the same in frequency response (within 3db) from 50-20000Hz they will not sound the same. The different driver manufacturers have a different sonic signature. It's hard to explain until you hear it for yourself. I'll be getting a mic soon, so will post some in room measurements. There is nothing to explain - the different 'sonic signatures' of the drivers will show up in the measurements. As I said, 'Measurements' is not just the frequency response. Lets say the two speakers are within 3dB 50Hz to 20KHz as you say. 3dB is audible. 1dB is audible if its over a wide enough bandwidth. So where the peaks and dips are in the response may vary and so the speakers will still sound different. That's before we get on to dispersion and distortion. If two speakers sound different it will show in one or more of the measurements. There is nothing a speaker can do that cannot be measured.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 15, 2023 21:46:17 GMT
I can understand that your approach would work well, especially with a long listen in your room before committing. I and Troels (most likely) would argue that even if 3 of his speakers measure the same in frequency response (within 3db) from 50-20000Hz they will not sound the same. The different driver manufacturers have a different sonic signature. It's hard to explain until you hear it for yourself. I'll be getting a mic soon, so will post some in room measurements. There is nothing to explain - the different 'sonic signatures' of the drivers will show up in the measurements. As I said, 'Measurements' is not just the frequency response. Lets say the two speakers are within 3dB 50Hz to 20KHz as you say. 3dB is audible. 1dB is audible if its over a wide enough bandwidth. So where the peaks and dips are in the response may vary and so the speakers will still sound different. That's before we get on to dispersion and distortion. If two speakers sound different it will show in one or more of the measurements. There is nothing a speaker can do that cannot be measured. In theory what you say should be right... However, practice and theory don't always concur. If you can tell all that from minor (within a few dB) differences in frequency response you are an a very expert and skillful man - I can certainly respect that. I certainly could not look at the frequency response of the Troels CNO25s and Ektas and tell you how they sound different and which I would prefer. They both measure pretty flat and do sound noticeably different - I have heard both. Anyway, this is probably a thread drift from "Are we all totally Bonkers?“... Or is it?! 😂
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Post by stevew on Jan 15, 2023 22:02:54 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 15, 2023 22:13:39 GMT
Are we bonkers?
Today I sat and listened to my system with a fellow enthusiast. We listened to a lot of highly enjoyable music. Music we must both have heard hundreds of times in our collective lifetimes.
We enjoyed the music, with some of this well trodden music sounding like it was fresh out of the packet to him.
After spending a couple of hours listening, chatting, having lunch and getting to know each other a little, he left.
He left with the serious intention of pushing his system a little further, and the purpose of that was to get even more from the music he owns. Music that he loves. Music that I love.
Is it bonkers to want to get as much from those recordings as we possibly can?
Is it bonkers to forage for genuine upgrades, that when found reinvigorate our enthusiasm for music we've heard thousands of times?
You see, the hifi upgrade experience has been just that. Moments of finding layers of music within recordings that I have never heard before.
I've heard Jimi Hendrix play "Machine Gun" hundreds of times on Band of Gypsy's, but when I listen to it on this system I have now....it's like he's playing at the same vibration as my soul and everything is happening on another plane.
It wasn't like this before.
It wasn't like this before I spent 8/9years working on my system. It wasn't like this before I met the right people and we built our own systems, and it would never have gotten to this if I had refused to put my hand in my pocket.
If music, from a technical sense, and spiritual sense, is as important to you, as it is to me......spending money to hear it how it can be heard, is not bonkers.
It's the only sensible thing to do!
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 16, 2023 4:44:58 GMT
^ I agree to a fair extent with Oli's post above.
I've had quite a few "hifi buddy" visits over the years. And I think that the best ones have turned out to be when there is a significant overlap in musical taste and knowledge, when we are both broadly into the same types of music but can discover new music pieces from each other.
In my view, the visit is not a success if it takes less than an hour for my hifi buddy to realise that (after the initial visual Wow of seeing the MBL speakers) they have been focused entirely, 100% on the music. The last visit it took 2 hours for him to suddenly realise that hifi had not been mentioned at all in our chat.
Where Oli and I seem to differ is on the emphasis on having to spend more money to achieve better sonic musical results. It often is the case, but it ain't necessarily so.
Both my current amp and DAC are amongst the cheapest I have ever owned - by a factor of x50 or more! And I think they are amongst the most musically rewarding. Far more expensive gear is sitting idle on my shelves or has recently been sold.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 16, 2023 7:34:40 GMT
Jerry, you have spent significantly more on your speakers (or at least their RRP is very high). I certainly agree that our system's speakers need to be extremely capable. I would certainly love to hear your system one day - your speakers really intrigue me. I bet they sound wonderful.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 16, 2023 8:09:30 GMT
Agree with most of the sentiments before so won't re-cover old ground, but I would add that talking about/trying out new kit is not necessarily a barrier or mutually exclusive to just listening to the music.
I do concede however that once you get to a certain level (of satisfaction) it does become a lot less important and the emphasis does shift onto delving deeper into the music, not just audibly but sparking conversations regarding the artist or genre etc, which can only be a good thing.
Maybe it's the music I listen to, maybe it's just my listening preferences but the 'studio accuracy' thing is not of the greatest importance to me. Of course, I want things to sound realistic and with correct placement etc and certainly not a falsely over-blown presentation, but I also want it to sound spectacular and really be a thrill to listen to, every time. If then, my system sacrifices some perfect 'accuracy' in return for a few more wow moments or a slightly more exciting presentation, I'm all for it.
I also know that for a lot of people the price/performance ratio is important (myself included) but I'm not worried about spending a set amount (that falls within my own means) for an audible improvement factor. Better is better but obviously your own improvement 'factor' will be different to everyone else's. For some that's spending double the amount for a 10% perceived improvement, for others the percentage increase in improvement would have to be higher to justify the increase.
Do/buy whatever makes you happy, kit/music, spend what you can afford.
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 16, 2023 8:36:30 GMT
Jerry, you have spent significantly more on your speakers (or at least their RRP is very high). I certainly agree that our system's speakers need to be extremely capable. I would certainly love to hear your system one day - your speakers really intrigue me. I bet they sound wonderful. Yes, special speakers for me, for sure. I bought them new, and yes, into 5 £figure territory. I'm happy to spend big when I feel it's musically justified. You'd be very welcome to visit me in the lovely Forest of Dean. That applies to anyone here. The goal is to be bowled over by the music, not the hifi.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 16, 2023 8:38:03 GMT
^ I agree to a fair extent with Oli's post above. I've had quite a few "hifi buddy" visits over the years. And I think that the best ones have turned out to be when there is a significant overlap in musical taste and knowledge, when we are both broadly into the same types of music but can discover new music pieces from each other. In my view, the visit is not a success if it takes less than an hour for my hifi buddy to realise that (after the initial visual Wow of seeing the MBL speakers) they have been focused entirely, 100% on the music. The last visit it took 2 hours for him to suddenly realise that hifi had not been mentioned at all in our chat. Where Oli and I seem to differ is on the emphasis on having to spend more money to achieve better sonic musical results. It often is the case, but it ain't necessarily so. Both my current amp and DAC are amongst the cheapest I have ever owned - by a factor of x50 or more! And I think they are amongst the most musically rewarding. Far more expensive gear is sitting idle on my shelves or has recently been sold. I don't think we necessarily differ. I think we're talking about different things, which I have said in the past. Digital (your primary source) is a weird space for HiFi. The DAC sector is stuffed to the brim with units that all measure incredibly well. Far better than they'd have you believe you can hear! That creates a great deal of depreciation to cost. You can buy a rather superb digital system for maybe £2k all in, if you mine the classifieds. However, vinyl doesn't work that way. I bought an Ortofon Vienna with an FSE, a WRD all installed by an expert, it had the FGS stylus, which is the same profile as a replicant 100 (if you disagree, you don't understand the technical drawing) . In total, I think that cart was about £800, and it was good. Really good. But when I put that original Windfeld on the TT, it just slayed it. No ifs, buts, or maybe's. In the analogue world, you do have to spend significant money to get to a certain performance level. That doesn't mean you have to buy the most expensive tat out there, but you do have to buy quality....and that isn't cheap. If ANYONE can show me a cheaper way to get this sq, I would be more than happy to hear it.
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optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560
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Post by optical on Jan 16, 2023 8:45:45 GMT
Jerry, you have spent significantly more on your speakers (or at least their RRP is very high). I certainly agree that our system's speakers need to be extremely capable. I would certainly love to hear your system one day - your speakers really intrigue me. I bet they sound wonderful. Yes, special speakers for me, for sure. I bought them new, and yes, into 5 £figure territory. I'm happy to spend big when I feel it's musically justified. You'd be very welcome to visit me in the lovely Forest of Dean. That applies to anyone here. The goal is to be bowled over by the music, not the hifi. But with a different (potentially cheaper and likely inferior) pair of speakers, wouldn't you be less likely to be 'bowled over' by the music AND therefore the kit? To me in that situation they are kind of working hand in hand and for me it would be natural to enter into a discussion about the kit that is making these exceptional sounds? If the how's and what's don't interest you (general 'you' not you personally) then that's different and obviously you wouldn't want to bore the pants of anyone who doesn't want to listen about phase/distortion/tuning ports etc . . . I can understant how some people would just want to listen though, nowt wrong with that.
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 16, 2023 8:46:15 GMT
Yes, I understand where you are coming from re vinyl, Oli. For me a MC cartridge was a non negotiable requirement. Although more expensive didn't mean better. Dynavector was one of my favourite brands, but I actually tended to prefer the middle of the range models, and if accuracy was ignored, then my fave for sheer musical fun was the bottom of the line DV10X5. Strange but true.
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