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Post by pete on Apr 5, 2022 22:58:35 GMT
2 inches is more than enough to cause that issue, I'd consider raising them up by that much by whatever means necessary. At least to check. I never heard a Proac I didn't like but they were always out of my price range back in the day. I have found over the years Bruce that tweeter placement is criticle, if you find the image is wandering with ZERO other adjustments to the system. Look at the amplifier output voltage first, then check line level from pre to amp again no more than around 3mv difference max between channels (less is better here), then check the source to pre amp voltgaes. If these are fine and not moving radically, then it could be a componnets in the x/over misbehaving. One thing I have with woith proac's over the years, made sure you have the Seaker heght height absolutely level on both speakers, use a laser pointer for this. I have listned to a single degree down bubble on one speaker throw the whole system well out. Worth a look Bruce Right, will have a look at these. After measuring, my ears are 4" higher than the tweeter centres... that's a bit! I'm wondering if I can get away with tilting the speakers up precisely to reach ear level so that I don't have to raise the whole thing 100mm? That would make moving them each day a bit easier, and the speakers and seating positions will be consistent. I suppose that could be iffy. Well for test purposes I can cobble together solid 100mm platforms for the speaker stands. You have probably thought of this, but for experimenting purposes, could you find a lower chair?
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 6, 2022 6:54:24 GMT
Ideally Bruce if you an keep the tweeter centres roughly 3 drgress from the centre line of your ears that a great place to start. Also start ny having the tweeter just set so they (if you use a laser pointer) would just brsh past the outside of your head ears 600mm is the golden height for the speaker stands, but you can experiment with heights, its quite often over looked speaker heights yetit is a very improtant aspect to have correct You have probably thought of this, but for experimenting purposes, could you find a lower chair? My stands are very heavy Target 60cm so now will experiment with getting them to raised to 70cm. I'd love to use a lower chair, but this is our main lounge and the listening seat is the main sofa... and the other chairs are taller still. I don't really have an option to throw out existing and buy new furniture.
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Post by macca on Apr 6, 2022 14:43:40 GMT
pretty much any two way the best position is ears directly level with the tweeter, or directly level with the space in between tweeter and woofer.
Little monitors tend to follow the BBC LS 3/5a design, which were intended to be deployed in outside broadcast vans. So if you think how close the engineer is going to be sat to them, probably no more than two foot, vertical dispersion not so much of an issue.
But in the home where you'll typically be at least five or six foot away it starts to become more critical.
if you didn't already you could experiment with damping the floor in front of them. You need about an inch thick of carpet/rug to make a difference across the relevant frequencies. Might be better or worse but it will change the sound.
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 6, 2022 17:07:45 GMT
Well that worked nicely. I put the stands on 100mm of wooden support, bringing them up to 700mm and the tweeter 25mm above my ears. The speaker placement seemed slightly more forgiving and the tweeter/woofer seemed a little more naturally integrated, with good extension and detail both directions, and maintaining the sparkle and nuance I can't do without. Oh yes, the central vocals have slightly more natural image and body to them. I thought it was pretty good already, but this stepped up a half notch.
I think I'll make a more permanent plinth & spike setup that will be even with my ears and see how that goes.
BTW: I do have some heavy persian carpet covering most of the lounge except for 1/2 metre of wood floor around the border. I also have absorption at the first side reflection points and a heavy curtain closed behind the speakers. I know the current thinking is diffusion, scattering, or a mix at the side but it's working for me at the moment.
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Post by misterc on Apr 6, 2022 17:42:13 GMT
Glad that helped you on your way Bruce, its fun to try a few of these little updates and benefit from their small but effective increases in listenability
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Post by macca on Apr 6, 2022 17:59:10 GMT
Good result.
Yes the diffusion/absorption thing is difficult, there are so many variables with the room and the speaker I don't think there is one solution for everyone.
Side walls if you have diffusion then it's better for wider soundstage, but the effect depends on the speaker.
Used to be live end dead end - nothing at the speaker end and pad it out at the listening end but that's old hat now.
I also have thick ceiling to floor curtains behind the speakers which has always worked for me. They cover a door and window though, so swapping for diffusion would be extra difficult. Plus not sure I care enough.
I rarely listen in the sweet spot unless I'm evaluating something new. Which I've not done for ages. The sound hangs independent of the speakers so that's good enough for me.
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 8, 2022 15:17:00 GMT
Today, I cut thick temporary plinths the same size as the bottom plate of the speaker stands and fixed spike bases to the plinth with double sided tape. Then levelled the stand via the spikes. Now 75mm higher than stock. Hooked up the speakers and my mouth dropped open… nearly unlistenable! It sounded horrid with all the HF way too bright and harsh! Two things were found that resolved it: - The bottom plate of the speaker stands have not been on spikes the last several months but directly on the floor with a long strip of rubber along the bottom of one edge, but I had removed the rubber strip when put up on spikes. > Added the rubber strips back.
- After levelling the speaker, I had failed to do a final check… and one was way off, aimed several degrees too low. > relevelled the speakers
Presto! Each of those changes brought the sound back to what I expected. I do find it interesting how much the sound changes based on how the bottom plate is damped or undamped… even when significant isolation is already used at the top plate. 20220407_181755 by Bruce Warren, on Flickr
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Post by antonio on Apr 8, 2022 17:42:17 GMT
Well done in sorting it Bruce, I'm just a little confused about the rubber strip, sticking that on the bottom plate helps damp the plate/stand?
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 8, 2022 19:14:28 GMT
Well done in sorting it Bruce, I'm just a little confused about the rubber strip, sticking that on the bottom plate helps damp the plate/stand? Since I move the speakers every day for listening, I was trying to go spikeless -- easier to move into position. At the optimum speaker position, they aren't level and I needed to raise the front of the speakers 4 millimeters, so used rubber strips 2cm x 20cm x 4mm fixed to the bottom of the base plate between the front two spike holes.
I wasn't thinking about damping when I did it. But when I was trying to locate how the HF got tipped up, it occured to me that the rubber and the spikeless contact with the floor might have had a damping effect. So I put them back and it made a difference. Now I'm experimenting to find the optimum amount for best sound.
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 20, 2022 18:43:12 GMT
I had an afternoon off so decided to pull the upgraded caps in my Proac 1SC’s and put the originals back in, Solens. I hadn’t heard them in 8 years so was curious… now that I have the speakers are the right height for my listening position.
Ok, Santana might not have been the best first choice! With the Proac’s stock forward mids (300-900 Hz), his guitar was just too much bloom in your face. Listened to a few other musicians that are more vocal centric and it wasn’t bad there though not quite as clear and well defined in the mids. So, I changed the 6.8uF capacitor back to the Clarity Cap ESA that’s been there for 8 years. Ah, the clarity and balance without undue bloom, and retains the musical beauty in the mids across genres. Proac xover (5) by Bruce Warren, on Flickr
The HF aren’t quite as bad as I remember, whether that’s 8 years to forget or the fact I’ve probably never had the speakers raised high enough until the last few weeks who can say? I do find that when these speakers aren’t high enough the tweeter has an inconsistent sound field, either a peak or a trough unless toed in just right. That said, the transients aren’t quite up to standards and some fine detail is missing compared to the ESA/Mundorf Supreme combo I had on the tweeter before. What I really need is something about halfway in between, so will try some CDE 940C 3Kv as bypass caps hopefully this weekend.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 20, 2022 18:45:53 GMT
I had an afternoon off so decided to pull the upgraded caps in my Proac 1SC’s and put the originals back in, Solens. I hadn’t heard them in 8 years so was curious… now that I have the speakers are the right height for my listening position.
Ok, Santana might not have been the best first choice! With the Proac’s stock forward mids (300-900 Hz), his guitar was just too much bloom in your face. Listened to a few other musicians that are more vocal centric and it wasn’t bad there though not quite as clear and well defined in the mids. So, I changed the 6.8uF capacitor back to the Clarity Cap ESA that’s been there for 8 years. Ah, the clarity and balance without undue bloom, and retains the musical beauty in the mids across genres. Proac xover (5) by Bruce Warren, on Flickr
The HF aren’t quite as bad as I remember, whether that’s 8 years to forget or the fact I’ve probably never had the speakers raised high enough until the last few weeks who can say? I do find that when these speakers aren’t high enough the tweeter has an inconsistent sound field, either a peak or a trough unless toed in just right. That said, the transients aren’t quite up to standards and some fine detail is missing compared to the ESA/Mundorf Supreme combo I had on the tweeter before. What I really need is something about halfway in between, so will try some CDE 940C 3Kv as bypass caps hopefully this weekend. Try some Audyn MKP Plus. They are utterly astonishing IMO and superb valve.
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 20, 2022 19:10:31 GMT
I had an afternoon off so decided to pull the upgraded caps in my Proac 1SC’s and put the originals back in, Solens. I hadn’t heard them in 8 years so was curious… now that I have the speakers are the right height for my listening position. ... Ok, Santana might not have been the best first choice! With the Proac’s stock forward mids (300-900 Hz), his guitar was just too much bloom in your face. Listened to a few other musicians that are more vocal centric and it wasn’t bad there though not quite as clear and well defined in the mids. So, I changed the 6.8uF capacitor back to the Clarity Cap ESA that’s been there for 8 years. Ah, the clarity and balance without undue bloom, and retains the musical beauty in the mids across genres. ...
The HF aren’t quite as bad as I remember, whether that’s 8 years to forget or the fact I’ve probably never had the speakers raised high enough until the last few weeks who can say? I do find that when these speakers aren’t high enough the tweeter has an inconsistent sound field, either a peak or a trough unless toed in just right. That said, the transients aren’t quite up to standards and some fine detail is missing compared to the ESA/Mundorf Supreme combo I had on the tweeter before. What I really need is something about halfway in between, so will try some CDE 940C 3Kv as bypass caps hopefully this weekend. Try some Audyn MKP Plus. They are utterly astonishing IMO and superb valve. I might at some point, for now the CDE 940C 3Kv as bypass is cheap as chips and highly recommended at www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html. If that doesn't work, the Clarity Cap CSA is half the price of the Audyn MKP Plus and will fit more easily. So the 940C is worth a go as a next step.
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Post by misterc on Apr 20, 2022 19:18:32 GMT
Nice job Bruce, did you replace the ceramic resistors as well?
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 20, 2022 19:22:17 GMT
Today, I cut thick temporary plinths the same size as the bottom plate of the speaker stands and fixed spike bases to the plinth with double sided tape. Then levelled the stand via the spikes. Now 75mm higher than stock. Hooked up the speakers and my mouth dropped open… nearly unlistenable! It sounded horrid with all the HF way too bright and harsh! Two things were found that resolved it: - The bottom plate of the speaker stands have not been on spikes the last several months but directly on the floor with a long strip of rubber along the bottom of one edge, but I had removed the rubber strip when put up on spikes. > Added the rubber strips back.
- After levelling the speaker, I had failed to do a final check… and one was way off, aimed several degrees too low. > relevelled the speakers
Presto! Each of those changes brought the sound back to what I expected. I do find it interesting how much the sound changes based on how the bottom plate is damped or undamped… even when significant isolation is already used at the top plate. BTW Remember this? I think most of the 'horrid' sound problem that day was the speakers not being level, pointing down a bit. The last 2 weeks I've been playing with different amounts of damping and found a decent balance, but I think that years ago I used some damping to handle sound issues on the speakers and have never been without some sort either on the cabinet back, cabinet bottom, stand bottom, or plinth. I suspect that damping often solves one problem but just moves it to different frequencies which can make things a little unpredictably uneven. It was time to tear all the damping off and go back to a fully stock speaker, working for a different approach.
...That being said, I have ordered some drum gel pad drum dampeners. I saw on Darko's review of the Buchardt S400 Mkii that the designer uses them on the speaker and the slow oscillation action (horizontal isolation) reminded me of the roller bearings without having the vertical coupling that comes with bearings. It was less than £5 so why not?
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 20, 2022 19:23:18 GMT
Nice job Bruce, did you replace the ceramic resistors as well? I did that years ago for the one in the tweeter signal path. Good result.
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Post by misterc on Apr 20, 2022 19:55:41 GMT
Nice job Bruce, did you replace the ceramic resistors as well? I did that years ago for the one in the tweeter signal path. Good result. That is a big help with those speakers. I re-engineered my first pair 21 years ago, they also really benefit froma rewire internally and decent binding posts I know you ditched those awful brass bars for jumpers (lol)
Also decoupling the speaker from the stand pay dividens as well
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 20, 2022 20:22:06 GMT
I did that years ago for the one in the tweeter signal path. Good result. That is a big help with those speakers. I re-engineered my first pair 21 years ago, they also really benefit froma rewire internally and decent binding posts I know you ditched those awful brass bars for jumpers (lol)
Also decoupling the speaker from the stand pay dividens as well
Wiring: The wire seems of good size but otherwise know nothing about it. Tyler wasn't forthcoming about much in his materials or designs.
Binding posts: Yes. To fit the convenient PCB mount, the shafts need to be <= 6.5mm and the only ones I know of are the Cardas. A bit pricey for 4 sets.
Decoupling from stands: Yes, I use Iso-puck minis for vertical isolation and sometimes add roller bearings for horizontal isolation. But the stand still has to be filled with sand orsimilar for the mids and bass to be decent. I find it curious how MUCH the stand figures in their performance, 'isolated' or not.
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Post by misterc on Apr 20, 2022 21:40:18 GMT
Bruce I feel the most important performance aspect of ANY stand mount true ability are the stands they sit on without question.
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Post by brucew268 on Apr 25, 2022 17:13:01 GMT
Rather annoyed today. Fitted the Proac 1SC with CDE 940C bypasses on the weekend. Immediately tore out the one on the mid/woofer cap as it sounded a good bit worse. The tweeter sounded slightly better but not hugely. Checked with Tony Gee today, who uses them a lot, and said they need about 100 hours to come on song. Right, that's sub par music for a while then. Fitted the Magnepan .7 with 16 gauge Neotech OCC, since the added 12 gauge seemed to mess up the frequency balance. The 16AWG sounded great yesterday and meh today, no wait it's changed, no wait it's changed again! Ok so the teflon coated OCC needs lots more hours to sound right and stay consistent from the start of an album to the end, that's after 50 hours already on the FryBaby. So, no satisfying tunes coming out the speakers this week.
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Post by brucew268 on Jan 18, 2023 10:52:45 GMT
Since the HiFi is in my home office the last two months where there is not room for the Balanced Mains Unit, I wanted to insert the DC Blocker back into the chain before the distribution block. However, its terminal blocks don’t fit the 6mm mains umbilical so I needed to source some 4mm for a new umbilical.
20230118_085425 by Bruce Warren, on Flickr 20230118_084611 by Bruce Warren, on Flickr Since Oli had spoken highly of getting screened mains out of the loop, I thought I might start with some H07RNF 4mm instead of the screened stuff I’d been using from MCRU and see if I could notice a difference. H07RNF is the kind used by event crews for concerts and the like and can be had for around £5 per meter. After putting it on a space heater for 18 hours and then the Isotek system disk for another 18 hours, I sat down for a listen. The HiFi projected a nice sense of space and great tonality though I could tell the HF was a little softened, rather euphonic overall. But on a couple albums the next day I was noticing a bit too much loss of transient edge for some music. I wonder if this is due to the H07RNF being fairly soft jacketed as opposed to the hard jacketed MRCU cable. I’ve noticed over the years that the durometer of the outer jacket of a cable often seems to influence the overall sound of the HiFi, at least for AC and DC cables. As I was pondering that possibility and not being too keen on sorting how to plumb the 6mm back in, it suddenly occurred to me that I’d moved the mains distribution block from the floor onto the equipment rack and had added some extra soft silicone bumpons to keep it from sliding around too easily. What if those very soft footers were responsible for the softening of high frequencies? It seemed a bit too strong an effect for this answer but it was an easy test to rip the footers off of the distribution block. Wow, that was a big change! Now too far the other way, over-busy with high frequencies. After playing with several options from my drawer, each effecting a different overall sound, I’ve currently settled on 2 cork feet and 2 extra-soft silicone feet. I would not have predicted that feet on a distribution block sitting on an equipment rack would have this big an effect on the sound, and it was a bit annoying to try several options before finding something acceptable… but there it is. BTW1: I have noticed over the years that whether a footer is meant to couple or isolate a piece of equipment, it does have the tendency to affect the frequency balance of the music coming out, whether through a damping effect of the footer’s contact with the chassis changing the chassis’ resonant frequencies or through the natural resonance of the foot & equipment support. This may result in certain frequencies to be highlighted and others either overshadowed or even suppressed either with an effect we like or dislike. But instead of actually “isolating” or “draining” vibration, we’ve more changed the frequency focus & balance. We may notice benefits and tradeoffs of the musical presentation either immediately or over time. Odd that in this way each chassis almost seems t be singing along with the signal going through it. How this would happen even when an analogue signal is not in certain components is a bit of a mystery, but that seems to be the behaviour I experience. BTW2: In this room, the amplifier transformer buzzes a bit at turn on but stops after a couple seconds with the DC Blocker in place. Before the DC Blocker it would continue to buzz intermittently. So that seems to be sorted.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 18, 2023 12:57:49 GMT
You know, There are some on this forum that won't be able to believe that removing the soft feet from your block changed the sound. I am not one of them, but i am glad i didn't say it first for once lol.
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Post by brucew268 on Jan 18, 2023 13:48:46 GMT
You know, There are some on this forum that won't be able to believe that removing the soft feet from your block changed the sound. I am not one of them, but i am glad i didn't say it first for once lol. Yeah, crazy isn't it. All I knew was that certain albums offered up a whole new side of themselves and yet others suddenly sounded broken and I needed to "find & fix" it. Whatever works.
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Post by brucew268 on Feb 19, 2023 21:21:54 GMT
And the room wins again! When I moved the system from the main lounge to my home office during Christmas season, I noticed a significant increase in the sense of transparency and thus resolution. It was not that the HF tipped up, it’s somewhat relaxed but present and natural when not turned up too loud. Then it kind can overload the room with busy-ness and overall you can tell it’s playing in a much smaller room. How to get that back? Well, one reported effect of diffusion is making the ear believe it’s in a much larger space. So, I made up some 1D scatter plates (amplitude diffusors) to face acoustic panels and… hated it! Instead of the room becoming spacious sounding and more accurate dimensional renderings of instruments, it became glaring and oppressive. The room became even smaller, though the HF separation got better in busy passages, but so glaring you couldn’t listen for more than 15 minutes, and the central image flattened out and lost dimensionality. BAD panel 1D DIY by Bruce Warren, on Flickr Well, I had fun making a complex router template and routing out the panels and learned a lot in the workshop though the results didn’t help my room at all, even though I tried them in several places and in different configurations. Meanwhile I was eyeing different furniture layouts for the room and decided to move one cabinet to the opposite corner across the room, then had a listen to make sure I hadn’t screwed up the sound in some way. The music sounds much more spacious and like the 11x12.4’ room is not pressing in on the sound like it was. The sense of space is significantly better while retaining the depth, and dimensionality of the instruments.
Cabinet near speaker by Bruce Warren, on Flickr But it did come with problems. The central image stepped back just behind the speaker plane whilst the voice/instrumental midrange became louder in the mix and a bit thicker, masking some fine detail. So played around with different positions for furniture and acoustic panels, glad I have enough raw panels to experiment a good bit. After a bit, I realised the congestion and room “smallness” I was hearing at the start was not a reflection diffusion issue as much as a bass issue muddying up the soundfield, and that cleaned up significantly just by putting one bass trap in a corner with a 4-6” air gap behind it. Then I experimented with the effect of absorber panels leaned in various places. It definitely required experimentation where some places needed more and some places needed less absorption and more reflection… noting that being an office there are a lot of cabinets and bookshelves protruding big reflective surfaces into the room. So more experimentation to find the best mix and placement, and it would have saved me time on the front end to have a reference mic and REW software, but am honing in.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 19, 2023 22:02:03 GMT
Dont give up!
I was quite lucky as the room treatment went in the only places I could logically put it, but it seems to work very well.
It is Defo worth the effort
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Post by brucew268 on Mar 10, 2023 18:45:51 GMT
Playing with acoustic panels as I have for the last week or more. It is amazing the choice of panel has a big effect on the dynamics, leading edges, imaging & separation, space, and textures. in the same position, using a 50mm thick broadband panel with RWA45 mineral wool position gives one musical presentation, changing it for a 100mm bass trap with a different brand (Knauf 60/40) gives a different presentaion. Better in some ways and worse in others. Changing it again for a 100mm bass trap of Rockwool RWA45 produces a result in between the two and I go back and forth as to which I like better based on the music being played. At least all the sound is engaging and enjoyable, unlike what I was dealing with in the listening experiments of three days ago. RWA45-PVC-50mm panel by Bruce Warren, on Flickr
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 10, 2023 20:25:37 GMT
Playing with acoustic panels as I have for the last week or more. It is amazing the choice of panel has a big effect on the dynamics, leading edges, imaging & separation, space, and textures. in the same position, using a 50mm thick broadband panel with RWA45 mineral wool position gives one musical presentation, changing it for a 100mm bass trap with a different brand (Knauf 60/40) gives a different presentaion. Better in some ways and worse in others. Changing it again for a 100mm bass trap of Rockwool RWA45 produces a result in between the two and I go back and forth as to which I like better based on the music being played. At least all the sound is engaging and enjoyable, unlike what I was dealing with in the listening experiments of three days ago. RWA45-PVC-50mm panel by Bruce Warren, on Flickr Is the printer for diffraction? 😂
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Post by brucew268 on Mar 10, 2023 21:56:54 GMT
Playing with acoustic panels as I have for the last week or more. It is amazing the choice of panel has a big effect on the dynamics, leading edges, imaging & separation, space, and textures. in the same position, using a 50mm thick broadband panel with RWA45 mineral wool position gives one musical presentation, changing it for a 100mm bass trap with a different brand (Knauf 60/40) gives a different presentaion. Better in some ways and worse in others. Changing it again for a 100mm bass trap of Rockwool RWA45 produces a result in between the two and I go back and forth as to which I like better based on the music being played. At least all the sound is engaging and enjoyable, unlike what I was dealing with in the listening experiments of three days ago. RWA45-PVC-50mm panel by Bruce Warren, on Flickr Is the printer for diffraction? 😂 It plays its part like everything else in the room!
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Post by macca on Mar 11, 2023 9:43:10 GMT
Your diffusors look like professional products - amazing.
I'm speculating but in a small room scattered sound might still arrive at the ear early enough to cause problems. Maybe lots of absorption would be the way to go?
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Post by brucew268 on Mar 11, 2023 13:57:31 GMT
Your diffusors look like professional products - amazing. I'm speculating but in a small room scattered sound might still arrive at the ear early enough to cause problems. Maybe lots of absorption would be the way to go? Seems to be. I've gotten fairly good results with 3 full size panels and 2 narrow ones, but continue to hear improvements when adding three more. Beyond that, the results start to become questionable.
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Post by brucew268 on Mar 12, 2023 12:26:01 GMT
A bit about the acoustic panel builds: First try - PVC ultralightI first read a post over on gearspace where he used PVC angle beading for the frame. This is minimalist in size and weight and I thought it might work a treat for someone who needs the flexibility of light movable panels. It is light at 2.7kg for a 1200x600x50mm panel. Screwfix has PVC angle beading and I used grip adhesive to attach them to all the edges. It stands up straight when leaned against the wall but if only one corner touches the wall, it’s flexible and twisty enough that the other corner leans in a few inches. I glued jumbo lollipop sticks as stays between the front and back frames but that didn’t help the twist. It should stiffen up a bit once the fabric is added, holding everything together. PVC can’t use staples to attach, which means adhesives. However the fabric is attached, it needs to manage some tension well and hold it there instantly, so many adhesives are useless, needing to be held in place for 20-60 minutes for a basic hold. I thought I’d be clever and try some strong double-sided tape like I’ve been using for woodworking. Most double-sided tape specifically says it won’t work on rough or uneven surfaces but the stuff I have will do. However, the torque put on the frame when moving the acoustic panel about while experimenting to find the best place stressed things enough that the tape didn’t hold well. So, I bumped up to an instant contact spray adhesive. That held sufficiently, but the fabric isn’t quite as neat a finished look as wood frame & staples. Also the PVC diamond pattern shows through a little. So, I only made one and moved back to wooden frames -- will use the PVC framed one where it’s not seen as much. Panels pvc frame by Bruce Warren, on Flickr panels pvc under fabric by Bruce Warren, on Flickr
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