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Post by robbiegong on Mar 15, 2021 12:19:56 GMT
Heard a load of Techy SL1200 original, modded and heavily modded to the extent where there was only the lower plinth and motor unit left. And I still own 2 SL1200s myself - both stock. But I've never heard one with the KAB damper. It does make sense though especially if you don't want to change the arm. Which I understand, one of my SL1200 is mint and being a design classic cannot be touched, so I would have put the new arm on the other one. One of my favourite modded 1200s was one that had been built into concrete and had a Terminator linear tracking arm fitted. Ortofon MC cart, but not an expensive one. It massacred the other decks at the bake-off. But I also heard an SL1210 that had nothing done to it except the arm was replaced with a Rega arm (forget which one, think it was a 250 or 300) and it was excellent. Couldn't fault it. That slightly 'shut in' sound the SL1200 has compared to 'hi-fi' decks is all in the arm. Sort that and you're golden. The rest of the deck is way better than anything remotely close on price and most of what is available at silly money (five grand plus). Tried loads of mats, preferred the Achromat. MM Cartridges? Nagaoka - accept no substitute This is spot on. the 1210 is far better than most of the dross thrown out at at stupid money...but you have to put a good arm on and you have to avoid using a metal arm base IMO.
Get a nicely made ebony one and i would imagine you'll be absolutely in "Hi End" territory for sensible money.
Spot on Olster, which I too found. The ebony armboard is simply the way to go - defo
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 13:11:31 GMT
I used Kevin's KAB damper, with the original stock arm on my SL1210g at the time, and from what I remember it was good. I'm sure I would have used the 2MB with and without it and dont remember the "MB sounding bad either way. He also does a resonance cap which screws into the back of the arm, same place where you'd add the sub auxiliary weight. A useful thing to have if you use the stock arm - about a fiver. Btw, I actually think the stock arm is good and well worth applying a few simple mods too, so simple wrap, resonance cap etc. Do Remember, that once you decide to strip out and do away with the stock arm, you are losing the excellent on the fly vya adjust system, which I'm a big fan of. If you're using conicals and carts less fussy re: set up then that's fine. I found the stock arm excellent with the 2M Black, better magnesium headshell, resonance cap and so on, even more so that I could dial it in with the aid of the on the fly. Surely that "on the fly VTA" is only useful when you set the arm up? I'd sacrifice that for overall performance improvement for the rest of the time if it meant set up took a little longer without it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 13:26:25 GMT
Has anyone actually got one of those dampers ? Being a mechanical engineer from my point of view it does look terribly flawed in this design and its application especially on a Technics tonearm and the claims that "all the best tonearm use them" does seem a little like snake oil hype . Is it even true ? If it is then record players have really moved on in the last few years. Apart from the Rock I have trouble recalling any top arms with trough dampers. And this version is way behind the rock in its design. Engineering doubts aside ....I'm not discounting it. If you chaps have one and it works then that's good enough for me.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 13:50:00 GMT
Has anyone actually got one of those dampers ? Being a mechanical engineer from my point of view it does look terribly flawed in this design and its application especially on a Technics tonearm and the claims that "all the best tonearm use them" does seem a little like snake oil hype . Is it even true ? If it is then record players have really moved on in the last few years. Apart from the Rock I have trouble recalling any top arms with trough dampers. And this version is way behind the rock in its design. Engineering doubts aside ....I'm not discounting it. If you chaps have one and it works then that's good enough for me. My old Mission 774 had a fluid damper and it was really effective on that arm. As for the Techie, Rob said he had one but i haven't heard one with the damping trough. KAB do seem to avoid the snakeoil selling approach and i have used a fair few meters of their superflex wire, which has done what it said on the tin. Change the arm, Eng. Get you Alphasson up to Johnnie for a rewire and a service and get an ebony armboard made. Probable work out the same cost by the time the damper gets through customs.
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Post by robbiegong on Mar 15, 2021 14:01:03 GMT
I used Kevin's KAB damper, with the original stock arm on my SL1210g at the time, and from what I remember it was good. I'm sure I would have used the 2MB with and without it and dont remember the "MB sounding bad either way. He also does a resonance cap which screws into the back of the arm, same place where you'd add the sub auxiliary weight. A useful thing to have if you use the stock arm - about a fiver. Btw, I actually think the stock arm is good and well worth applying a few simple mods too, so simple wrap, resonance cap etc. Do Remember, that once you decide to strip out and do away with the stock arm, you are losing the excellent on the fly vya adjust system, which I'm a big fan of. If you're using conicals and carts less fussy re: set up then that's fine. I found the stock arm excellent with the 2M Black, better magnesium headshell, resonance cap and so on, even more so that I could dial it in with the aid of the on the fly. Surely that "on the fly VTA" is only useful when you set the arm up? I'd sacrifice that for overall performance improvement for the rest of the time if it meant set up took a little longer without it. In my experience, on the fly is a superb aid when it comes to dialling in the sweetspot with microlines, where you literally dial it in, still takes time, it isnt and instant thing, but you do hear where it suddenly is there and bingo. As I say, I find the 'nailed it / optimum widow' extremely narrow with microlines, hence I honestly wouldnt want to ever have to try and nail it without on the fly and do wonder how others do it, but my guess is they must do, somehow. Either that or sometimes some think they've nailed it and havnt and either 'work' around it or right the cart off as 'crap', ' I dont get what all the hype is about' / ' i know others love it but it's not for me' type thing. Having spent plenty time with the Shibata'd Ortofon 2M Black, Quintet Black and Cadenza Black, and now the Fritz Gyger S re-tip on the end of the Cadenza B, I can tell you it's been absolutely clear with each of them, whenever I hadn't nailed it - replay/system sounds tizzy, hyper, fatiguing - wrong, but once nailed, the opposite applies - replay/system is a joy, excellent tonal portrayal, imaging, separation of the individual parts is on point. Each recording is individually defined, sound is calm, balanced, non fatiguing, natural, engaging, and as we say 'musical' and a delight - night and day to be honest, IME - in fact, my set-up is very revealing, therefore the difference is simply either listenable and very very enjoyable or unlistenable.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 14:05:29 GMT
Surely that "on the fly VTA" is only useful when you set the arm up? I'd sacrifice that for overall performance improvement for the rest of the time if it meant set up took a little longer without it. In my experience, on the fly is a superb aid when it comes to dialling in the sweetspot with microlines, where you literally dial it in, still takes time, it isnt and instant thing, but you do hear where it suddenly is there and bingo. As I say, I find the 'nailed it / optimum widow' extremely narrow with microlines, hence I honestly wouldnt want to ever have to try and nail it without on the fly and do wonder how others do it, but my guess is they must do, somehow. Either that or sometimes some think they've nailed it and havnt and either 'work' around it or right the cart off as 'crap', ' I dont get what all the hype is about' / ' i know others love it but it's not for me' type thing. Having spent plenty time with the Shibata'd Ortofon 2M Black, Quintet Black and Cadenza Black, and now the Fritz Gyger S re-tip on the end of the Cadenza B, I can tell you it's been absolutely clear with each of them, whenever I hadn't nailed it - replay/system sounds tizzy, hyper, fatiguing - wrong, but once nailed, the opposite applies - replay/system is a joy, excellent tonal portrayal, imaging, separation of the individual parts is on point. Each recording is individually defined, sound is calm, balanced, non fatiguing, natural, engaging, and as we say 'musical' and a delight - night and day to be honest, IME - in fact, my set-up is very revealing, therefore the difference is simply either listenable and very very enjoyable or unlistenable. I suppose as the cart wears, it may shift? In that case i see why you'd prioritise it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 14:15:14 GMT
Is J7 back in action then ? I got in touch a while ago about it but he was sick or something. My main points of doubt are 1..its at the wrong end and the leverage ratio would make it near totally ineffective taking into account the radius of the damper from the bearings.. 2...the decidedly unstable head shell fitting on the Technics arm would again negate any damping effects at the bearing end.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 14:28:36 GMT
Is J7 back in action then ? I got in touch a while ago about it but he was sick or something. My main points of doubt are 1..its at the wrong end and the leverage ratio would make it near totally ineffective taking into account the radius of the damper from the bearings.. 2...the decidedly unstable head shell fitting on the Technics arm would again negate any damping effects at the bearing end. That's a good point.....I'm not sure about Johnnie and had forgotten he was out of action. Hmm. You've made good points about the arm......change the arm.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 14:35:51 GMT
😄👍
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Post by robbiegong on Mar 15, 2021 15:40:36 GMT
In my experience, on the fly is a superb aid when it comes to dialling in the sweetspot with microlines, where you literally dial it in, still takes time, it isnt and instant thing, but you do hear where it suddenly is there and bingo. As I say, I find the 'nailed it / optimum widow' extremely narrow with microlines, hence I honestly wouldnt want to ever have to try and nail it without on the fly and do wonder how others do it, but my guess is they must do, somehow. Either that or sometimes some think they've nailed it and havnt and either 'work' around it or right the cart off as 'crap', ' I dont get what all the hype is about' / ' i know others love it but it's not for me' type thing. Having spent plenty time with the Shibata'd Ortofon 2M Black, Quintet Black and Cadenza Black, and now the Fritz Gyger S re-tip on the end of the Cadenza B, I can tell you it's been absolutely clear with each of them, whenever I hadn't nailed it - replay/system sounds tizzy, hyper, fatiguing - wrong, but once nailed, the opposite applies - replay/system is a joy, excellent tonal portrayal, imaging, separation of the individual parts is on point. Each recording is individually defined, sound is calm, balanced, non fatiguing, natural, engaging, and as we say 'musical' and a delight - night and day to be honest, IME - in fact, my set-up is very revealing, therefore the difference is simply either listenable and very very enjoyable or unlistenable. I suppose as the cart wears, it may shift? In that case i see why you'd prioritise it. Exactly Ol' as in 'shift' is your enemy with these and why I sometimes wonder why I bother. A slight shift for whatever reason and you hear when it's suddenly out and then ya back to diallin in to nail that sweet- spot again, which can be fatiguing, hence why microlines are not for everyone - yes they sound fab when 'in' but they are a faff and damn super sensitive to shift and error IME. The shift I'd say most definitely applies largely here is shift from your initial sweet-spot vta dial in, and then over time there'll likely be other stuf that can, as you say affect too I guess like gradual incremental suspension change etc etc
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 16:06:57 GMT
I suppose as the cart wears, it may shift? In that case i see why you'd prioritise it. Exactly Ol' as in 'shift' is your enemy with these and why I sometimes wonder why I bother. A slight shift for whatever reason and you hear when it's suddenly out and then ya back to diallin in to nail that sweet- spot again, which can be fatiguing, hence why microlines are not for everyone - yes they sound fab when 'in' but they are a faff and damn super sensitive to shift and error IME. The shift I'd say most definitely applies largely here is shift from your initial sweet-spot vta dial in, and then over time there'll likely be other stuf that can, as you say affect too I guess like gradual incremental suspension change etc etc Buy a DAC rob lol
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Post by robbiegong on Mar 15, 2021 16:08:23 GMT
Exactly Ol' as in 'shift' is your enemy with these and why I sometimes wonder why I bother. A slight shift for whatever reason and you hear when it's suddenly out and then ya back to diallin in to nail that sweet- spot again, which can be fatiguing, hence why microlines are not for everyone - yes they sound fab when 'in' but they are a faff and damn super sensitive to shift and error IME. The shift I'd say most definitely applies largely here is shift from your initial sweet-spot vta dial in, and then over time there'll likely be other stuf that can, as you say affect too I guess like gradual incremental suspension change etc etc Buy a DAC rob lol lol. Yeah, got the transport ages back but need to nail the DAC and a few more pennies beforehand too
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 16:08:25 GMT
My experience with the 2MB was not related to set up, but the voicing of the cartridge. I still use Shibata and Micro line cartridges now, but the voicing is more pleasing to my ears.
My modified SL1200 still has VTA on the fly.
When this one finally gives up, an SL1200G will replace it.
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Post by robbiegong on Mar 15, 2021 16:22:49 GMT
My experience with the 2MB was not related to set up, but the voicing of the cartridge. I still use Shibata and Micro line cartridges now, but the voicing is more pleasing to my ears. My modified SL1200 still has VTA on the fly. When this one finally gives up, an SL1200G will replace it. Nice one Kevin
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Post by karma67 on Mar 15, 2021 16:47:25 GMT
Surely that "on the fly VTA" is only useful when you set the arm up? I'd sacrifice that for overall performance improvement for the rest of the time if it meant set up took a little longer without it. As I say, I find the 'nailed it / optimum widow' extremely narrow with microlines, hence I honestly wouldnt want to ever have to try and nail it without on the fly and do wonder how others do it, but my guess is they must do, somehow. Either that or sometimes some think they've nailed it and havnt and either 'work' around it or right the cart off as 'crap', ' I dont get what all the hype is about' / ' i know others love it but it's not for me' type thing. easy,i use feeler gauges.
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Mar 15, 2021 21:01:50 GMT
Surely that "on the fly VTA" is only useful when you set the arm up? I'd sacrifice that for overall performance improvement for the rest of the time if it meant set up took a little longer without it. In my experience, on the fly is a superb aid when it comes to dialling in the sweetspot with microlines, where you literally dial it in, still takes time, it isnt and instant thing, but you do hear where it suddenly is there and bingo. As I say, I find the 'nailed it / optimum widow' extremely narrow with microlines, hence I honestly wouldnt want to ever have to try and nail it without on the fly and do wonder how others do it, but my guess is they must do, somehow. Either that or sometimes some think they've nailed it and havnt and either 'work' around it or right the cart off as 'crap', ' I dont get what all the hype is about' / ' i know others love it but it's not for me' type thing. Having spent plenty time with the Shibata'd Ortofon 2M Black, Quintet Black and Cadenza Black, and now the Fritz Gyger S re-tip on the end of the Cadenza B, I can tell you it's been absolutely clear with each of them, whenever I hadn't nailed it - replay/system sounds tizzy, hyper, fatiguing - wrong, but once nailed, the opposite applies - replay/system is a joy, excellent tonal portrayal, imaging, separation of the individual parts is on point. Each recording is individually defined, sound is calm, balanced, non fatiguing, natural, engaging, and as we say 'musical' and a delight - night and day to be honest, IME - in fact, my set-up is very revealing, therefore the difference is simply either listenable and very very enjoyable or unlistenable. The sheer awkwardness and inconvenience of making any adjustments was what eventually made me give up on my Clearaudio. 15 mins spent setting up the G and I was already hearing better from the Cadenza Bronze than I ever did before. A turntable that makes adjustment inconvenient or difficult is just working against you.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 23:03:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2021 3:10:07 GMT
750 quid ? I'm a Yorkshireman for christ's sake ! I could get a different Bradford trollop every night for two years for that sort of money. 😠
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Post by macca on Mar 16, 2021 7:16:10 GMT
They're £1300 new though so it's not a bad price.
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Post by macca on Mar 16, 2021 7:17:53 GMT
1210GR I mean not Bradford trollop. I think you'll struggle to find a 'new' one of those.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 16, 2021 7:58:39 GMT
1210GR I mean not Bradford trollop. I think you'll struggle to find a 'new' one of those. Yeah I thought it was a pretty decent price too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2021 8:06:36 GMT
1210GR I mean not Bradford trollop. I think you'll struggle to find a 'new' one of those. 😂
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Mar 20, 2021 21:42:10 GMT
@engine - how’s the 2M Black?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2021 23:09:22 GMT
On holiday. I prefer the Dyno, it's a bit rockier. The black is good but it's not got much soul.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 20, 2021 23:32:21 GMT
On holiday. I prefer the Dyno, it's a bit rockier. The black is good but it's not got much soul. Very analytical isn't it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2021 23:40:58 GMT
Yes. A bit factual . It's good as a tool for extracting info but for me it needs a bit of a kick up the arse. There...a proper review in one sentence. 🙂 The stylus can be as fancy as you like but that's not gonna make you dance.
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Post by antonio on Mar 20, 2021 23:58:41 GMT
A Yorkshireman's review Engine, at least we can all understand it.
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Post by robbiegong on Mar 21, 2021 19:49:12 GMT
On holiday. I prefer the Dyno, it's a bit rockier. The black is good but it's not got much soul. Are you able to play with vta engine ? although, yeah, the Dyno may well be 'rockier' Reason I ask is that the 2MB will sound a little analytical and lacking in soul when not set up in it's sweet-spot, which in my experience is somewhere within a slightly negative rake. If you are able to easily adjust vta, after ensuring everything else is spot on of course, I'd recommend re-visiting at some point and having a play with very clean ears listening for when it sounds right and settled. Not challenging your ears or findings, it's just that back when I did have one, I found it a revelation to be honest. I'm also a classic soul and reggae addict, which is my staple when it comes to spinning the tunes, so soul without soul and reggae without rhythm would mean the black would have either been moved on faster than bolt out of the blocks, or trampled under foot But yeah, can understand if it's as you say, that you just find it rockier - Nearest I get to rock in my collection is Steely Dan, different strokes for different folks and all that
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 21, 2021 20:36:05 GMT
On holiday. I prefer the Dyno, it's a bit rockier. The black is good but it's not got much soul. Are you able to play with vta engine ? although, yeah, the Dyno may well be 'rockier' Reason I ask is that the 2MB will sound a little analytical and lacking in soul when not set up in it's sweet-spot, which in my experience is somewhere within a slightly negative rake. If you are able to easily adjust vta, after ensuring everything else is spot on of course, I'd recommend re-visiting at some point and having a play with very clean ears listening for when it sounds right and settled. Not challenging your ears or findings, it's just that back when I did have one, I found it a revelation to be honest. I'm also a classic soul and reggae addict, which is my staple when it comes to spinning the tunes, so soul without soul and reggae without rhythm would mean the black would have either been moved on faster than bolt out of the blocks, or trampled under foot But yeah, can understand if it's as you say, that you just find it rockier - Nearest I get to rock in my collection is Steely Dan, different strokes for different folks and all that Wise advice from experience is how I read that Rob. Top contribution!
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Post by antonio on Mar 21, 2021 23:52:02 GMT
Just to verify, negative rake is the arm down at the housing end?
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